Wow. First let me say I am FLOORED that a GS can take a harder correction then a bully. I would think that Physically the thick skinned muscular bullys would feel less from a correction. I know that they generally seem less thought out and mature, but again WOW~
See, thanks to you all, I am going to bed smarter then I woke up.

As for the rest.
My "doggie couch" is made of old lawn furniture cushions thrown on the floor.Hey its a couch as far as they know. ha ha

Yes, dogs are awake at times in their beds when they are growling or lifting a lip. Again none have been here over 50 days. Too soon to know who is buttering their toast?

As I stated in my earlier post, nothing is here to fight over. All Items MUST be consumed or they are taken away. I am even careful to collect lost kibble from under crates. No aggressive dog gets ANYTHING but food and water If I cannot take it away without Issue.


ALL DOGS ARE CRATED.

Both persona non Grata fighters get crate and room rotated, none see my bedroom and both are forced to sit calmly together, and there has been no issue with this. I do try and make them use the same crate when the other is not in it. I attempt to meld the scents.

One dog is documented and shows all the scars of fighting. The young black one, Tom. The other, looks pristine, and yet is the lightning fast striker who always wins. ALWAYS.
You are correct. The older winner is also the better one at taking and understanding corrections, time outs, crate time etc.
The young guy WILL take a simple level 1-2 " come on, lets go" tug and answer it with a growl that means business. Continue with a deep "Thats NO!" and he is not pondering taking a snap, or dealing with the situation. Its been at this point that I have not been consistent. As one of the Jens pointed out, he would go from openly playing, licking and visiting me, to complete fear aggression after Any lead Correction. So I wonder what his issues are and buy an electric collar. WOW did that go poorly. forget the stim, the vibrator part of the collar would get him so freaked that he would hide for days.
it was at this point that I started to handle him where yes he would growl, but would not snap. So I would lets say go to pet an ear and when he would growl, I would pet through it hoping that he connects the pleasure with touch rather than a correction. So far this has worked, yet I keep thinking that when and if he does take a snap at me, boy am I going to feel foolish for risking this and for praising him through this growl.

I am SO glad that someone has explained the slight nuances that I obviously miss before they fought. I didn't known that they have the ability to adjust and remedy me watching over them. The looking out of the corner of his eye, and especially they leg muscles are both things I would easily miss when distracted in the past. Now they do not get to play with others so its easier to watch them and view their posture

As far as pack structure. AGREED~!
I will say that I am in a panic due to the unknown and I am prob pushing this faster then nature intended. As mentioned above, the dog gets upset for weeks when corrected. I don't have the experience to know if this will pass or if I have damaged the dogs trust permanently. He is My Keeper, so its more personal.

Let me explain that I am NOT a rescue, but a novice trainer who only takes in Rescues who have been rated as having behavioral Issues. Now I did this hoping to save some lives and to gain experience in training. What has happened to me is that rescues who have no more kenneling have booked me offering 2-3-4x what U charge, just in hopes of getting a cage for their stray they pulled. I should have passed and said sorry no, but its easy to accept money when its in the name of saving a dogs life.
So I am too filled to deal with the dogs I want to keep properly. Each dog does go for a 1 mile run and has two sessions of 30 min training.
Now some of these dogs have never been handled. Some go insane when a collar and leash are first introduced. Food aggression and house breaking is almost always a problem. These groups do what they feel is best for these dogs, but they are all non profit and have no choice but to rely on less expensive novice trainers to get these animals palatable for society. Its a loosing battle, and I can only hope to be worth my salt some day in the future.

As I read my own Issues, I see that I should have either stuck to my guns and gone E.F. Tough love all the way, or Taken a totally different approach, but I started out stern and freaked out when the dogs became leery and introverted after hard corrections. As Jenni W. said, I may need to fig out a different correction "style" as she did.

You continue to pet the dog while he is growling at you?

" So far this has worked "


In what way?

 Quote: georgio pasha

Wow. First let me say I am FLOORED that a GS can take a harder correction then a bully. I would think that Physically the thick skinned muscular bullys would feel less from a correction. I know that they generally seem less thought out and mature, but again WOW~
See, thanks to you all, I am going to bed smarter then I woke up.

All dogs can be different in their level of hardness, I have known soft pits and rotts and ambulls and I have known very hard pits and rotts and ambulls. Same for every other breed, there are soft and weak neved members of every breed same as their are hard and solid members of every breed. Corrections should always be tailored to the specific dog.

 Quote: georgio pasha

As for the rest.
My "doggie couch" is made of old lawn furniture cushions thrown on the floor.Hey its a couch as far as they know. ha ha

The "doggie couch" while not multi-leveled like a regular couch can be, is still something that can be fought over You say there is nothing to fight over - absolutely everything can and will be fought over. Any soft place like a dog bed or cushion is prime sleeping/resting area, it is more comfortable, and as such is worth fighting over. Dogs will fight over a spot on the floor they prefer, there is always something to fight over but I will say you are doing good in removing the most specific items such as food, treats, chews, and toys. Those are yours anyways, not the dogs

 Quote: georgio pasha

Yes, dogs are awake at times in their beds when they are growling or lifting a lip. Again none have been here over 50 days. Too soon to know who is buttering their toast?

This must be corrected, you really need to work one on one to establish rank over these dogs, growling and lifting a lip is an aggressive/warning or threat usually made by a dominant or nervous animal - when waking up a dog the dog is asleep, laying down, a naturaly submissive posture. You standing or kneeling/beeing above this dog is a dominant posture, the growling/lip lifting is likely a response to your dominant posture. Be careful this does not escalate into serious aggression, I have seen it happen many times in the past.

 Quote: georgio pasha

As I stated in my earlier post, nothing is here to fight over.

See above.

 Quote: georgio pasha

and both are forced to sit calmly together, and there has been no issue with this. I do try and make them use the same crate when the other is not in it. I attempt to meld the scents.

This is what I think is a BAD IDEA. These dogs should not be together. At all. Not until you are much more firmly and surely their alpha.

I would not use the same crate for both dogs - it doesn't work the way you are thinking. A dog will not become used to another dog or accept it more if it shares territory. A crate is a den, a safe place - mixing the dogs in one crate can easily create MORE problems between the two as both of them feels the other dog is taking over it's special area/territory. I never ever mix crates or sleeping areas or food bowls for this reason.

As for being a rescue - you are incredibly lucky my friend! I never got paid for anything I ever did, I spent thousands of dollars, at times money I did not really have, in order to care for, train, and send off dogs fully equiped with crates, bowls, food, leashes, collars, etc. It is good that you do the work you do. I did the same thing - I took dogs that other people wanted to put down for aggression or behavioral problems. I specialize in dogs with moderate to severe behavioral problems ranging from phobias/fear/anxiety to dog, animal, and handler aggression. A livestock chaser/small animal killer, fighting dogs, house pets, hunting dogs, you name it, if the people couldn't handle it/were fighting/abusing the dogs, I took them.

Edited to ad: Good catch Connie! I missed that part. This, to me, is a very bad idea and not something an alpha or leader does. I just reread and saw this so I will make another post, running out of edit time!

Also, for posturing and body language information you can visit my site, still a work in progress as I have been very busy and recently ill. http://www.freewebs.com/theanimaltrainer/dogwolfbodylanguage.htm

"both are forced to sit calmly together, and there has been no issue with this. I do try and make them use the same crate when the other is not in it. I attempt to meld the scents. "

WHAT!?




EDIT: Sorry; Jennifer got in there in front of me. With a far better post. :>

 Quote: Georgio Pasha

As one of the Jens pointed out, he would go from openly playing, licking and visiting me, to complete fear aggression after Any lead Correction. So I wonder what his issues are and buy an electric collar. WOW did that go poorly. forget the stim, the vibrator part of the collar would get him so freaked that he would hide for days.
it was at this point that I started to handle him where yes he would growl, but would not snap. So I would lets say go to pet an ear and when he would growl, I would pet through it hoping that he connects the pleasure with touch rather than a correction. So far this has worked, yet I keep thinking that when and if he does take a snap at me, boy am I going to feel foolish for risking this and for praising him through this growl.

How did you condition the dog to the collar before you used it? The vibrate does tend to make a dog nervous, it is a strange thing to feel for a dog. E collars work wonders but I do not personally use them for aggression problems.

You say after a correction the dog would show fear aggression? Can you describe the body language and what happened here, please? Fear aggression is not immediate automatic response like you seem to be saying - unless the dog is very set in it's ways and started fear biting that developed into generalized aggression. Aggression from a leash correction is handler aggression.

Was the dog low to the ground, tail tucked, ears back, or laying exposing the belly all immediately following the leash correction and showing aggression at the same time?

K Jennifer, Connie, Sorry if my terms are incorrect. Let me try again.
Most of the dogs here come to me in some unruly form as I stated. My methods of teaching and corrections have worked with all but these two and my results so far have been well behaved dogs that are calm indoors, house trained, non reactionary to outside distraction etc.. basically, I say they are ready for human consumption, as I like to phase it. 3 have been returned by their adopters, but for reasons beyond the control of the dogs. things like adopter who refuse to crate the dogs, people who refuse to fairly acclimate the dogs into their already established homes etc.

Now Inters Tom. Tom was fought. Here is his first day picture.
sure looks like fight wounds to me.

So now Tom is loving, friendly, nice, loves to play and took common commands and corrections happily.

this stayed like this and we the family voted that Tom was to be OUR dog. He was then given some privileges like coming on rides to the store, visiting parks and coming to work with me on some training cases, but left in my car on those few times.

So 30 days goes by and a shelter sends me Dexter.


Dexter was very much the style of the Pit that I was trying to replace after he passed away this summer, so family loves Tom, I love the Dexter, we agree to try and keep both along with my Wheaten T. All is well until one morning when I am awoken by Tom, who got out of the crate (darn two door crates!) he is Crate fighting the new guy Dexter. I give a few verbal No's and then I go to grab tom's ever hanging leash and Dom collar. He snaps. I am in nothing but my underwear, and so I retreat, grab a dinner chair, block him and get his leash. I take Tom Off his front feet for a what I would say is at least 8 seconds, and I release. Tom continues to act aggressively toward the other cage, I attempt to correct him and SNAP! Top takes his best shot at old George here. So I then decide Tommy is going for a free ride and I use both arms to take Tom clear off the ground. Now This was necessary at his fist day with us when he again went to bite said hand that was to feed him. That time, I held him up until he was a bit lethargic. I then gently allowed him to lay at my feet and I stayed with him through his dreamy like state. That time He woke a different animal. It was his first day with us and he clearly understood that no nonsense would be tolerated.

Not This second time at the crate fight, I DID NOT hold him up as long and in turn he remained in a conscious state, able to asses what was happening. IT was at that time he has become what I keep calling fear agg. Maybe thats not the right term. lets just say that No matter what the situation, food time, moving tom out of the house, even when He chooses to approach you, any unauthorized move by you to come near him results in tom getting a look of horror in his eye and a growl to say, "whatever it is, keep it, I don't want it". Clearly his correction has damaged his confidence in me and has set me back obtaining his trust for what is not a month.
so through this,I have gaged his growl level and know when he is blowing air morso than not,and so I usually try and not back off, but to gently continue my objective, usually its some sort of touching. I do this because he clearly is growling out of fear of another unpleasant experience. So when I say "so far it works" what I mean is that Tom HAS accepted a slow hand being put on his back or an ear scratch and has discontinued pre scratch growling. On the other hand, move from scratching an ear to say blowing him a kiss sound, and yup, he is back to growling.

I am not above crating and ignoring him like he was a plant for whatever time it takes. I am not happy with my backward approach to Tom. I simply had and have fear that my correction hurt out relationship, and I didn't want to damage it further by Isolating it more corrections.
Now that I have read where the other ladies dog has felt the same hard feelings and withdrew, I fell more comfortable thinking he will come back around.

So in long/short, Tom is skittish after being choked out a bit for biting me. To confirm his fears, after that Encounter, Dexter had NEVER allowed Tom any slack after the crate thing. As I stated He got to Tom and they locked up for prob 10-15 seconds, enough to leave tom with a puncture wound, and to confirm his doubt in me his pack leader and previous pal. He no longer wants to address me and never comes by to say hi and trade a sloppy kiss for a scratch..
How would you guys start over obtaining his trust? Also when he does make a mistake like alerting to a dog, whatever, how would you go about correcting him during this skittish stage?

Now the other fella Dexter, is taking correction with the electric collar very well and a simple nick of stim redirects his mindset and he seemed to be MUCH better than he ever was command wise. His only Issue is that If he gets to stare down Tom, he will do all he can to deal with the hardest prong collar correction, Dom collar choke, elec collar on full stim, it all means nothing compared to his need to get to that dog.

Let me also add that they haven't sat in the same room since their last altercation where I realized Dex is darn serious on getting to him, and he feels almost as passionate.
I am doing the reverse of your suggestions and I do make them stay calm and quite while being crated in view of one another.
May I ask why this is a bad thing to have them even see one another?

Its these times of calm that has me confused as to why they decide to tolerate one another for days sometime, and then they seem to choose to stare one another down at other times. This staring and challenging is what I initially bought the stim collars for. I was attempting to correct the posture and leering as it surfaced. they do cut it out if you nick them early enough.
NO good?

I think It would help me best if you would not hold back. Being told I am dead wrong is OK with me. Again, I don't have the hands on experience to debate you folks. clicker training or rolling over for a treat, this aint!
I am begging for instruction myself. No worries about being polite or hurting my feelings. They are all well intentioned ideas that I am trying, and I am so grateful to have all this professional input ton help me sort out the good and bad Ideas.. So what would you do in this case? Do we get stern and isolate Tom? treat him with Kit gloves? whats the best bet for reestablishing his trust and respect? he already gets lots of one on one time in and out of here.
Also why are are the ideas you don't agree with counter productive? Better then hearing they are not correct, I rather understand why and what the dogs are thinking. Example.. The person who suggested allowing them to wrestle it out muzzled. What negative does the dog come away with? does it get them More excited to fight? I am sure the person who suggested it felt that they would be able to chin one another and maybe hash out their pack placement with no risk of wounds. I would never do it now, but what would be the negative?
I am especially interested in why they shouldn't even see one another. Thats pretty hard since its tight in here.

Thanks Folks

PS

To make like worse, I just received a Rotti who is very scared and just downs and pees when you put a hand out to him. He was taxied to me in NY from New Hampshire today. Apparently the adopter worked at a pet-co as a trainer, yet the dog ate her couch, her car seats and dashboard and even blew through his crate and two hollow wood doors. Her landlord is thrilled and threw the dog out on 24hrs notice.
Can anyone tell me a guess at his age? he is just getting a gray goatee type thingy.

 Quote: georgio pasha

Wow. First let me say I am FLOORED that a GS can take a harder correction then a bully. I would think that Physically the thick skinned muscular bullys would feel less from a correction.

Not about physical stuff at all. It's mental-all related to temperament. I have a Chihuahua that you'd be hard-pressed to upset about a correction. My older Pit-marshmallow. Not safe to generalize, but with my own (and it's probably got a lot to do with the type of GSD I like) my GSDs are 100x harder than my Pits.

 Quote: georgio

My "doggie couch" is made of old lawn furniture cushions thrown on the floor.Hey its a couch as far as they know. ha ha

Ditch the couch. Not necessary; a very nice thought, but they're not deserving at this point, to put it in human terms. Also, this a huge catalyst for a fight. No, it's not a consumable, but it has to do with rank. Alphas get the best bed. I'd lose it in a hurry.

 Quote: georgio

As I stated in my earlier post, nothing is here to fight over. All Items MUST be consumed or they are taken away. I am even careful to collect lost kibble from under crates. No aggressive dog gets ANYTHING but food and water If I cannot take it away without Issue.

Excellent policy but be aware of things that THEY may perceive as worth fighting over that you wouldn't fathom.

 Quote: georgio

...both are forced to sit calmly together, and there has been no issue with this. I do try and make them use the same crate when the other is not in it. I attempt to meld the scents.

I am absolutely shocked that they sit calmy next to eachother. However, I feel it's a ticking time bomb. I would change the crate-sharing policy. I had a situation like this, and here's what I did: My GSD is an @$$hole. You wouldn't believe the things that will set him off. Like another dog eating snow. Don't you know ALL the snow in the yard is his? Just an example. He used to be house dog, but he was so territorial (big distinction-territorial, not dog-aggressive) that he'd get in mini-scraps with everyone. Also, he was just generally a grouch. Always feeling the need to protect SOMETHING that was his. Long story short, I moved him into the garage in a 10x7 kennel with his very own couch. I NEVER allow another dog in or near his kennel. Now that his stuff is protected and he is not forced to share (he never was, but the thought that someone might venture into his territory made both our lives hell), he is waaay more laid-back in general. He is far less likely to get into a scuffle due to dominance or some invasion of his space (as he sees it). I protected his stuff, so he doesn't have to. I can ask this dog to drop anything, regardless of value. He used to not want to give it to me, although he was never the slightest bit aggressive toward me.

 Quote: georgio

As one of the Jens pointed out, he would go from openly playing, licking and visiting me, to complete fear aggression after Any lead Correction. So I wonder what his issues are and buy an electric collar. WOW did that go poorly. forget the stim, the vibrator part of the collar would get him so freaked that he would hide for days.

Same exact experience w/my rescue Pit. Exactly, minus her growling at me. I threw that idea out the window. Not worth the relationship to stop her from counter-surfing and the plethora of other annoying things she does.

 Quote: georgio

I am SO glad that someone has explained the slight nuances that I obviously miss before they fought. I didn't known that they have the ability to adjust and remedy me watching over them. The looking out of the corner of his eye, and especially they leg muscles are both things I would easily miss when distracted in the past. Now they do not get to play with others so its easier to watch them and view their posture

You have to learn the dog, which takes more time than you've had. As I've said a hundred times, I truly feel this is the problem with Pits. People simply don't recognize the warnings. With my older one, it's nothing more than a corner-of-eye glance. No change that I can see in overall stance, just very still, but not tense, and then this sideways glance. She was never fought, but she appears (several factors) to be gamebred and won't start a fight, but openly accepts the invitation to end one. Oh, and she likes to win, too.

The growling, I believe, is a sure sign that these dogs are stressed. This is more posturing than I would expect with dogs who simply "like" to fight, and I bet if you make them more secure separately, through bonding and no crate-sharing, etc., this will subside. Mine can all ride in the car together, pass by each other without incident, etc. even though Mia loves a good rumble.

 Quote: georgio

I will say that I am in a panic due to the unknown and I am prob pushing this faster then nature intended. As mentioned above, the dog gets upset for weeks when corrected. I don't have the experience to know if this will pass or if I have damaged the dogs trust permanently. He is My Keeper, so its more personal.

Panicking won't help, lol. I do know how you feel. Be kind, fair, CONSISTENT, and he will recover. I JUST went through this with mine. I thought I'd ruined her relationship with me forever, and although I had absolutely no choice in the matter, I felt bad that she was that upset.

 Quote: georgio

As Jenni W. said, I may need to fig out a different correction "style" as she did.

If I can do it, you can. I'm stubborn!

I have to say what you're doing is great, and something I've thought about but I just don't have the facility to keep my own animals out of harms way from the "problem" dogs. Kudos.

Sorry for the long post. So many said great things, but it was too hard to quote double and triple, so I started from scratch. I wonder if anyone will read this far...lol.

WHOA-Edit: I missed the picture before. I would never, ever, never, no-way, allow 3 dogs together, especially not of their backgrounds. I don't do this with my own if they're over about 6-10mos. Too easy for 2 against one, and then you've REALLY failed as a protector. These dogs are insecure, confused, you name it. They should not be put in this situation. I don't mean to sound harsh, but I think it's a huge detriment to the great things you're trying to do.

Edited by Jenni Williams (12/31/2007 09:56 AM)
Edit reason: missed the picture

The Rott in the photograph does NOT look happy. I agree with Jenni, you should never NEVER just toss a new dog into a pack situation (I don't care if Cesar Milan does it), especially when you haven't had ANY of these dogs for even 2 months, until you are 100% sure it is comfortable with the other dog. (not dogS, dog). Build a bond with YOU first, then you can allow two friendly dogs to play together to get some energy off.

Oh my gosh..... just caught up some of with this, reading more carefully....

To the O.P., this is a time bomb. PLEASE separate those poor dogs. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

You are doing them and yourself a huge disservice.

The fight potential (huge) is bad enough. But they are also focused on each other and not you, as well as living in constant tension and (for at least some) fear.

Lots of things to say here, but everyone else is saying it so I need not repeat.

From the pics you have posted, it makes me shudder to think of what could, well no, what IS going to happen if you do not do the right thing and separate these dogs.

It is only a matter of time before you find yourself in the middle of a horrific fight.