Quote: Kristel Smart

Sandy is right about the gloves. No shame in having big heavy leather gloves, right?

Actually I was thinking more along the lines of these gloves: http://www.hexarmor.com/products/item/veterinarian/hercules-400r6e/ Before I knew these were available, I tried leather gloves, so bulky and to the pup it was a definite target so I scrapped that idea.

 Quote: Kristel Smart

.... I reward his animation and attentiveness with a tug game and let him have the toy. This is usually at the end of a training session to end on a fun note.

Now here's a good example of dealing with the dog you have and knowing him and his temperament, IMO, where Kristel lets her dog have the tug at the end, whereas I take the tug away at the end cause this is what my dog needs me to do (more accurately put is this is done for my sake). As Ed and Cindy have said numerous times and it most certainly applies to my dog: the toys are MINE, not his, so with Lear I take the tug away at the end.

 Quote: Kristel Smart

I can't imagine any good reason to get a dog like this fired up without purpose though, and I wouldn't recommend these games to most pet owners. The dogs can get pretty wound up.

Yep

Edited to add: the word MINE written in capital letters is for Lear. (You hear that, Lear?!)

 Quote: michele mcatee

If playing fetch or toss the toy, with a pup, it leaves an "open area" where owner (at least in my experience) gets the needle teeth even when redirecting!

So true, and when my dog was a pup, redirecting did not work. He would chase the toy, grab it, look at me, drop it, and run back to bite on me. It was obvious where his interest laid. After a few times of that, the jig was up and he ignored chasing the toy altogether.

I think he had a decoy in the womb.

I would agree that one must assess the type of dog you have and determine how the game will be played.

If you have a very pushy dominant dog and it will be only a pet the game will be very different than if you have a timid dog and are looking to build confidence.

Pushy, pet dog that will get big...hey tugs can be a great way to teach teeth presicion (... in good time ), focus, out, leave it... from 8 weeks old in a positive way. I am not suggesting that the pet owner tugs the dog into a frenzy and then lets the dog win....no need for that. The owner can out the dog as part of the game 10 times in a row if that is the goal...

If you don't control a game the dog will. You need not play tugs to have dominance issues, it can happen with any game/toy. I have seen goldens refuse to out a tennis ball and growl at people who try to take it, we have all seen post about keep-a-away and possessiveness with everything from kleenexes to socks. Better to control the game from the begining and use it as a tool to help the pet be the best it can be.

I am saying if we broaden our definition of what tugs can mean and teach, there is a big use for it with pet owners as well. Of course the owners MUST be educated and have a GOAL in mind for the game. This will prevent the missuse of the game.

An alternative use for tugs could be to teach a pet dog to retrieve for example (if it is not a natural) for exersise. Using a ball on a rope you could teach some tugging and "outs" stuff and then you could throw the toy (maybe in a hallway) and the dog could be encouraged to bring it back for "tugs", a game you have "marked". The ball on the rope would become a retrieve and tug toy....

I do not just mean that we should all write on billboards that tugs for pets it a great game, as many pet dog owners do not care enough to train their pets to do ANYTHING AT ALL, so of course it could be a disaster if they have a dog that rules the house and they are just looking buy a new toy and tug away....

I sense that the OP is doing research before hand and even if it is just a pet it will be a well behaved and active part of the family.

To the OP, good for you in doing your research and in the end like Sandy said it will be up to you to decide if you want to play this game with your dog. The types of games you play should be shaped by your goals and what you are comfortable with. SO many ways to skin a cat...I mean train a dog

Most trainers will tell you that playing tug-of-war with your dog encourages him to think he's your equal, which is bad. Other trainers take a slightly different view, which is that if you let your dog win in a game of tug-of-war he'll be less obedient, but if you win he'll be more submissive.

However, a controlled study of fourteen golden retrievers in Great Britain found that neither of these things were true; least with the fourteen golden retrievers the experimenters used. The researchers had people either win or lose a series of tug games with the retrievers and then watched how the dogs behaved. The losers were more obedient after playing tug, but so were the winners. All the dogs were more obedient after playing tug of war with humans. And none of the dogs suddenly got more dominant. The winner dog didn't display any dominance behaviors.

One study doesn't prove anything, but I think it's both safe and fun to play tug of war with your dog, and it might even be good for him. Just remember; the study also found that the dog who lost every time were a lot less interested in playing anymore tug. Apparently, a dog doesn't like losing all the time any more than a person does.

...

We know the brain circuits for aggression are seperate from the brain circuits for play. Testosterone, which can increase agression, either has no affect on play fighting, or actually reduces it. Sometimes rough housing will turn into real fighting, but inside the brain the two are two different things.

The other piece of evidence that play fighting isn't about learning how to win is the fact that all animals both win and lose their play fights. No young animal ever wins all his play fights; if he did, nobody would play with him. When a juvenile animals is bigger, stronger, older, and more dominant than the younger one he's playing with, the bigger animal will roll over on his back and lose on purpose a certain amount of time. That's called self-handi-capping, and all animals do it. Maybe because if they didn't, their smaller friends would stop playing with them. This is also called role reversal, because the winner and loser reverse roles.

Role reversal is such a basic part of rough house play that animals do it when they play games like tug of war too. A friend told me about a story about her mixed breed dog, when he was a year old playing with a four month labrador puppy. The two dogs like to play tug of war with a rope, but my friends dog was so huge compared to the puppy that it was no contest. If he used all his strength, he'd whip the puppy around like a frisbee.

But that's not what happened. We noticed the puppy was "winning" some of the tugs.

Some behaviorists say that the fact that all animals self handicap might meant that the purpose of play fighting isn't to teach animals hwo to win, but how to win AND lose. Alll animals probably need to know both the dominant and subordinate role, becase no animal starts out on top, or remains on top. Even a male who is going to end up as the alpha, starts out young and vulnerable. Has has to know how to do proper subordinate behaviors.

http://www.leerburg.com/963.htm

I'm just quoting. I personally don't have the perspective to add anything meaningful. Having said that, it makes me simply wonder...

#1. We have people who have these driven, dominant dogs contantly prone to take a mile when given an inch.

#2. We're taking these driven dominant dog and profoundly integrating tug-o-war into their daily lives.

#3. Some would have one believe you're walking a razors edge with tug, in terms of being too weak and creating a monster (after all, that's what everyone seems to be after...).

-Either the handlers in question are so skilled and consistent at this particular game...

-Or the game isn't terribly profound for most dogs in terms of rank...

-Or, people with these driven dominant dogs are indeed screwing up and suffering dire consequences periodically, and simply not consistantly sharing.

-Or people don't have dogs which are dominant as they actually are.

It seems like a numbers game. So many people are going out of their way to not only find a dominant, driven dog, but also doing more tug with it than any pet would ever get...and yet...nobody is complaining about suffering the dire consquences of screwiing up...at least not as often as I'd expect. Is everyone that good, or is it just not that big of a deal for most dogs (working or otherwise)?

Curious.

I take some of that back. I just got a PM from someone who suffers pugnacious consquences.

Stil, I wonder about the application to the majority.

I think that's a really good observation, Steven. I believe the answer lies in a combination of factors.

1. There aren't many dogs that truly are <i>that</i> dominant, especially when living with a handler who knows what they're doing.

2. Tug has an effect, but it isn't a great effect. It can enhance genetics, but I think there's a limit to the net gain you can get in building prey and confidence, this definitely links back to 1, above...most dogs simply aren't that dominant.

3. The people that are agressively playing tug are using that as a part of their training. They're enhancing the dogs natural dominance, but in most cases they're channeling that dominance into submissive (towards the handler, at least) training.

I think there is a degree of risk that you take. Someone (I don't know who) on this forum paraphrased the karate kid, and I think they were dead on. Mister Miyagi says: "No karate...safe. Lots karate...safe. Some karate...Squish like bug!" If you're going to intentionally enhance a dogs prey drive and build its confidence, you need to have a plan, you need to know <b>why</b> you're doing it, and you need to leverage those traits in your training.

I think what you're alluding to is right; it's not going to make a HUGE difference. But it can give you that edge that you need in the more intense dog sports. And I think the most dangerous dogs are the ones that are encouraged to be dominant, drivey, and hard without being taught how to use that energy subserviently, following their handlers instructions. I bet we see a lot of that in "out of control" dogs. I think this forum is unique because the handlers here are going all the way. Much protection training, safe.

You have no idea how poignant that Karate Kid quote is to me.

However, it's

"In street, walk left side, safe. Walk right side, safe. Walk middle, squish...just like grape.

Karate same. Karate yes, safe. Karate no, safe. Karate, "I guess so", squish, just like grape."

I just want to thank everyone for all of your comments. I realize that a lot of questions may not be answered until I actually have the puppy in my home but I need to hear the opinions of you wonderful people so I can make an educated decision. My family is pretty active and we realized we made a lot of mistakes with our last dog and are determined not to make the same mistakes with the new one. We want a smart, fun, active,(we're a pretty active bunch), submissive pet. Our last dog was a husky and if anyone knows huskies you know what an independent mind they have. Our husky definitely saw my father and brother as the pack leaders. They instill pack structure without even realizing it. My sister mom not so much. And me sometimes, sometimes not, because I just wasn't consisted. But we have watch the pack structure video and this will not happen again. But...with that said since this is really our first time being pack leaders we don't want the dog to develop a challenging behavior where we have to ALWAYS let him know we are the pack leader. All we can do is wait and see. We're a group of big time researchers and information junkies and then we jump into the deep end.

Cool gloves in the link...I think I'll try them!

 Quote: steven lepic

I'm just quoting. I personally don't have the perspective to add anything meaningful. Having said that, it makes me simply wonder...

#1. We have people who have these driven, dominant dogs contantly prone to take a mile when given an inch.

#2. We're taking these driven dominant dog and profoundly integrating tug-o-war into their daily lives.

#3. Some would have one believe you're walking a razors edge with tug, in terms of being too weak and creating a monster (after all, that's what everyone seems to be after...).

-Either the handlers in question are so skilled and consistent at this particular game...

-Or the game isn't terribly profound for most dogs in terms of rank...

-Or, people with these driven dominant dogs are indeed screwing up and suffering dire consequences periodically, and simply not consistantly sharing.

-Or people don't have dogs which are dominant as they actually are.

It seems like a numbers game. So many people are going out of their way to not only find a dominant, driven dog, but also doing more tug with it than any pet would ever get...and yet...nobody is complaining about suffering the dire consquences of screwiing up...at least not as often as I'd expect. Is everyone that good, or is it just not that big of a deal for most dogs (working or otherwise)?

Curious.

I take some of that back. I just got a PM from someone who suffers pugnacious consquences.

Stil, I wonder about the application to the majority.

Interesting ponderings Steven. The topic has made me ponder as well.

My personal dog is not what I consider a dominant dog, yes drivey/prey driven though. he may have a few tendencies that some non dog people might think are dominant traits, but I rather think he is on the nervy side. We use tugs with a ragging article as our search reward. I have tugged with lots of sar dogs with MANY temperments from floppy eared mutts to working bred pointy eared dogs. Many dogs of all breeds and sizes LOVE it.

I like to work ob with a ball on a rope for some tugs as well. Similar in fashion to what sport folks use for ob.

Seems to me many sport folk have dogs that are high on the confidence scale, some occasionally dominant I suppose. (I agree that definitions of dominant vary) I see the that great trainers find ways to use tug toys to teach even these "high drive, maybe dominant" dogs to do all sorts of precision things. Without loosing their place at the top of the pack, I might add.

So like you say...either the handlers are skilled at playing and manipulating the game, or the game is not that meaningful in terms of rank.

I think the game is especily meaningful in terms of rank IF you are using tugs to TEACH the dog some behavior. Not just playing tugs for the heck of it. (though of course we are teaching things even when we are playing and think we are not teaching things )

This is were I think that pet owners can learn a thing or two from working dog owners. Working with your dog is a bonding experience and can be used to teach the dog desired/correct behaviors. Instead of actually turning most dogs into raving maniacs it can turn them into well behaved pets or working dogs alike. Okay well it is not a miracle, but it uses a behavior that dogs find engaging, and then we have the option of using it as a reward for things that please us.

That is really the way I have approached tug games anyways.

The only reason I would not use tugs as a tool in my toolbox for my next dog whether it be a working dog or a pet, is if the dog does not enjoy the game, or I can't control the game. For example if I ever have a dog that gets "pug"nacious

I realize that there are MANY poeple with WAY more experience than myself in playing tug games, hopefully they will add their experice.

Great wonderings Steven, I am curious to see others answers. Unfortunatley I need to find a way to block Leerburg from my mind for the next 7 days as I am at a big 14 hr a day course with nightly homework starting tomorrow and I am a BIG procrastinator