oh, we do. she knows now that when we're out walking and there's another dog coming, we move to the side (up a driveway or something), and she has to sit - and stay sitting - i do correct if she moves out of the sit, b/c not only does she know the command, but b/c i know why she's moving out of the sit, and it's not b/c she thinks she's done what i asked. i can tell she doesn't like sitting - she'd far rather be, ummm, interacting, with the other dog - but she will do it for me. i usually then once the dog is gone continue on our walk and immediately reward her for good behaviour, which tends to be the heel. i do that rather than do some obed. to then give her a reward with her on the driveway or whereever we've gone, b/c i want the walk to be as normal as possible, if that makes any sense, and i figure staying on the driveway possibly reinforces the removal and could be associated w/the other dog. which may not be logical at all....

Jennifer wrote:

"i was just saying i can redirect her and she will behave, even if she doesn't like it. usually i praise her after we've left the situation and she's heeling by my side nicely. i was more saying - i would find it very difficult to find a calm moment".

IMO From what you have written, I don't believe redirection is the way to go because by redirecting you are in this instance taking her away from the situation that caused the behavior and therefore you are not training her cope with that situation. The fact that while being redirected "she doesn't like it" tells me redirection is not working for you. Moreover you shouldn't try to "find a calm moment" you train for that moment. I still suggest you try what I offered earlier.

sandra, my other problem with that - and i've discussed it with the guy who came, and he noted it as well - is that she gives off very few warning signs (certainly, not ones that are visible from above her, as we are if we are walking....maybe her commisures (sp?) change, but i can't see them). i have read that sometimes when people train dogs and correct them, if they aren't careful w/timing, they can train the dog to stop showing signs so the dog will look relatively normal and then 'suddenly' attack. i find teagan like this, and so did the professional. with dogs, for instance, the second she sees one, she is aware of it and will track it, but she will stay relaxed in her body language, up until the optimum attack distance, at which point she turns (there is never vocalization) and attacks. since i know she does this now, that scenario doesn't occur, i control the situation to make sure it doesn't, but she is a difficult dog to reward for calm b/c at some point, i think, she learnt to remain outwardly calm. the only time she is not outwardly calm is if she knows she can't attack - either i've thwarted her (this is if we have off-leash dogs approaching), or she's inside, knows she can't get out, and becomes frustrated. the more i get to know her, the more i can see tiny signs of tension, but they come and go, you can almost see her regulating herself.

For Me Jennifer, I want some actual obedience from him in spite of the distraction. I want it clear he has to listen to me and Leave it from me overides whatever else may be there. Following my commands then are how he earns a reward.

i already do most of that stuff....i've read all the groundwork articles, etc. teagan's behaviour has really changed as that has been implemented.

redirecting is something i've started recently - less than a month - after we moved and i started to see more signs of her being territorial. outside i've always used corrections, even if i have her sit or something, if she shows aggression, i correct.

 Quote: steve strom

For Me Jennifer, I want some actual obedience from him in spite of the distraction. I want it clear he has to listen to me and Leave it from me overides whatever else may be there. Following my commands then are how he earns a reward.

and with teagan, when we are outside, i don't generally have to correct her back into a sit - when we started, i did, but now she knows to hold b/c i said to sit. issues arise if the dog is particularly obnoxious or not being watched and comes up the driveway at us - and there, we are improving. i've been looking on it as proofing her with distractions, cause you can't get much more distracting to her than another dog.

And then watch, those people with the other dog are going to be so impressed with Teagan they're going to stop and want to ask you questions and up those distractions on you. LOL.

Jennifer, just to clarify, what I said above: "Trying to redirect a dog that has begun to behave aggressively toward a dog (or person) with a treat or toy is, to me, a joke. And worse, is definitely perceived by the dog to be a reward. That is if he even pays attention to either item which is extremely doubtful since he's in drive, high drive." was not aimed personally at you, I hope you know that. It was aimed at the concept in general of trying to redirect a dog with food or toys while a dog was being aggressive.

If you think about what gets a dog past aggression or catches him before he starts, it's training. It's as Norman wrote.

Look at that picture with the GSDs and the cat walking by. Have always loved that picture. I actually have more admiration for the GSDs that ARE looking at the cat, because their instinct is to chase, you can see that, but because of their training they deny that desire. THAT is awesome training.

As for the other dogs who are looking at their handlers, that's great but we don't know if those dogs have a problem with cats or not to begin with. It's the ones who obviously want to do something and aren't doing it that thrills me.

I think you are on the right track Jennifer. You just need to give it more time. Norman has tons of experience with aggressive dogs and I do not want to discount what he has to offer. Read what everyone has to say and make the best choice for your dog.
I only offered what has really helped with my own dog aggressive dog.

Sandy

sandy - i knew you were talking generally! i had been trying to....i was curious about the theory and method generally.

i've never rewarded teagan with a treat while she's behaving aggressively, so... i was just curious from reading the book, in general, it's not something i've done myself. or, randy's experiment aside, something i plan on doing.

when i redirect her, i take her away so we are removed from the situation and work on obedience with her. she calms down b/c we are gone, and she starts thinking about what i'm asking her to do.

if we are outside, it's more like you're saying - she will do sit, b/c i've trained her to, but yup - she'll be looking at the dog, but stay sitting. reinforcement or correction is only needed when the dogs either are, like i said, really snotty, or come towards us. and she's improving, but not 100% with that yet.

steve, i've had that happen w/just people before....this is awhile ago, but i had both dogs out, and this lady was so impressed, she asked to pet them, and since she was next to luc, i said yes. then she went to pet teagan!!!! i'd done a lot of work with her, to not be baring her teeth at strangers who pet her (always reaching over her head), but i still had this 'NOT THAT ONE!' moment, but it was inside, and teagan accepted the pet beautifully - she completely ignored the woman, but - completely ignoring also means no aggressive behaviour! i was thrilled!

sandra - your comments are great! thank you!