Cameron, I was responding to your statement that nerves was a leadership issue and not a genetic issue.

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I guess what I was meaning to say is that I've always thought it came back to a lack of leadership. That there isn't a problem with the dog because it has weak genes or an abusive past, it's because it had no leadership to trust in. If the dog doesn't have a leader it can trust in, there will be an issue - genetics, socialization aside. I think that genetics can set them back, but that a lack of structure and leadership sets them back more than anything else ever will. If dog #1 had a good leadership and structure, then it shouldn't really be fearful despite the socialization issue. And if dog #2 had owners that understood that it had weak nerves due to genetics, then a lot of time a patience could be spent overcoming this issue and working on building confidence and trust. Either way, if either of these dogs fail it's because they didn't have a good leader not because they have a genetic or socialization issue. Just my opinion on this, I hope I clarified what I meant...

Whether or not the dog has had leadership or not does not determine its nerve quality. That is what I was getting it with my question regarding a naturally strong nerved dog with lack of leadership.

I had not read your other posts or anyones posts after Mallory's I took about 45 minutes to make my post because I'm slow and tired I now understand that you meant it specifically in the context of rehabbing the dog not as a generalized statement.

But I still stand by my post, leadership plays a part but genetics plays a larger part and naturally strong nerved dogs are less likely to have fear issues whether or not they recieved socialization/environmental exposure. That weak nerved dogs don't learn confidence, they learn to put up with things based on conditioning and situational exposure.

A strong nerved dog can "come back" from bad experiences, a weak nerved dog will be weak nerved with or without a leader.

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But a good handler will try to keep these exposures to a minimum

Also, my idea of a good handler is someone that understands their dog and if they have a weak nerved dog to condition it to as many things as possible (in a healthy, appropriate way for the dog) so as to reduce the amount of stress the dog is under if its taken anywhere. For weak nerved dogs they can learn, as I said, to look to and trust in the handler and ignore things it is used to with minimal stress. I see to it as my obligation to these weak nerved dogs to condition them to lots of things so they can be comfortable, rather than just keeping them away from 10,000 potentially scary things or situations.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

I see to it as my obligation to these weak nerved dogs to condition them to lots of things so they can be comfortable, rather than just keeping them away from 10,000 potentially scary things or situations.

Absolutely! I agree that once the foundation is laid and the relationship is there to introduce exposures of past "bad" things to re-train the dog that even scary things can be ok. To clarify what I meant to say...
"But a good handler will try to keep these exposures to a minimum (until the dog is at a place to mentally handle being introduced to the fear)
I think I am tired In an earlier post I mentioned a dog I worked with years ago and talked specifically about this. I don't think that the dog should be isolated from triggering events or situations, (because that will only make it worse)just that they may never behave "normally" to them. The dog I talked about earlier was always afraid of other dogs due to his past. One time he jumped through a plate glass window to get away from another dog. He never stopped being nervous, but he did learn to behave appropriately in situations, and became more or less "aloof" and indifferent. I didn't care that he ignored other dogs, I just didn't want any fights or jumps out of windows.

One other thing...

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I guess what I was meaning to say is that I've always thought it came back to a lack of leadership. That there isn't a problem with the dog because it has weak genes or an abusive past, it's because it had no leadership to trust in.

That was referring to a mention of when a dog fails or is not able to be rehabilitated, not the reason there was a problem in the first place. Obviously, a bad genetic line is there regardless of leadership. A rescue with weak nerves is that way because of genetics, but the success will ultimately depend on the leadership given to it in re-training. Ultimately, I believe if the dog cannot be helped when rescued, its because there was a lack of leadership given to the dog, or accepted BY the dog, as opposed to "this dog was born with weak nerves, therefore, it can't be re-trained"

 Quote: amber morgan

But it has turned my mind to this question: How can you tell if a dog with no known history is fearful because of a lack of socialization/exposure or because of bad genetics?

What a great question! Amber, I hope this isn't hijacking your thread. I feel like I'm about to give you a homework assignment !

I have a perfect example for you. If any of the people answering your question or you yourself could see this dog in action, I think you guys would be scratching your heads. I know I am!

This female, 18 or 20 month old workingline GSD came from a breeder on this site. Out of respect for that person (this breeder has been nothing but professional and helpful from day one so this is NOT a post criticizing him/her), they will go unnamed.

The dog is an absolute basketcase. To call her "frantic" is an understatement.

When she is "confronted" by what scares her:

children
people
bikes
skateboards
motorcycles
dogs
strollers

to name a few, she acts like her life is on the line and she's about to die. I've never, ever seen anything like it in all my years.

The dog was purchased from the breeder at 5 1/2 months old. The breeder says she was socialized.

Therefore, if that is the case, is this lack of enough socialization or bad genetics? This breeder has been recommended by many people on this board. I say this because I think that's important. So if this breeder breeds sound dogs, what happened to this dog???? I would think it's very possible to breed sounds dogs and produce a dud now and then.

To this day, I cannot figure out which it is: bad genetics or not enough socialization. If someone could answer your question, Amber, it would help me too. Jennifer Marshal clearly helped me with her answers but I don't feel qualified to tie her answer to this dog. I think, based on her answers to you, that my problem is genetic. She's a highly weak-nerved dog. Worst I've ever seen. She doesn't recover from any exposure to the things that scare her. She recovers when she gets into the safety of her home. That's it!

So, back to your question...how do you tell which it is - lack of socialization or bad genetics, with any dog? If recovery (or lack thereof) is a defining clue, I would think there would be other clues as well???

Sorry Amber if this seemed like a hijack; I didn't mean it to be.

Great thread!!!!!!

Another homework question.

2.5 year old male Catahoula, a rare breed (they are not found in puppy mills) used as hunting and stockdogs in the south. They are bred mostly by hog hunters and stock keepers as working dogs and guard dogs. This breed has a history of heavy culling - in the past, dogs that could not work were simply culled. They are supposed to be confident, tough, working dogs. This individual dog's parents/breeder is unknown.

My foster was a cruelty case (neglect) kept in a cage in a back yard with at least 2 of his littermates until around 8 months of age, so he was never socialized.

VERY fearful dog - with objects, noises, and movements, mostly when indoors. NO issues with people at all - he loves them.

I originally got him at 9 months of age and he was just terrified of everything. Had him 11 months and worked with him every day. He improved. He was adopted for 11 more months then returned to me.

Today, he can function but is still a nervous, skittish dog. With all the work that has gone into this dog (mind you, I am far from a professional trainer), I'm surprised he's still so scared. He still needs to be crated or belted in the car as he can barely contain himself, even though we go in the car every single day to drive somewhere for a fun hike.

Genes? or lack of socializing? or both?

Amber, your question is something I've asked myself often.

My pup is out of a female I rescued. Father unknown. This female has a ROCK SOLID temperament - does not startle, is always calm and friendly and loves everybody. Her pup, who I've tried to socialize as best I could (though admittedly I know nothing about puppies), hackles and barks at people and is extremely sharp. Once a jogger came around the corner and ran straight past us on our walk and startled him. He was so startled he emptied his anal glands. He was so "angry" he sounded like he was going to attack her.

Genes? or lack of socialization?

How to tell the difference???

Lots of good questions and examples here and Judy's example of the dog from the good breeder with the ever-present fear behavior is a perfect example of why I was asking if other people have observed if there are/were other signs that might indicate a genetic fault, such as obsessive behaviors.

Here's what I think:

Even in a good breeding you can still get a throwback and a "genetically" weak-nerved dog. It's much more rare in educated breedings and carefully selected bloodlines and that's why you're drastically increasing your odds of getting a sound dog with a good breeder. By the same token, byb and puppy mills will occasionally produce a well-balanced dog despite the odds. So, it's not an exact science.

Also, from what I have read and heard, the mother's temperament and reactions while with the pups can have a big impact on how the pups view new experiences.

Then you have the drastically different handling methods, knowledge and patience levels of both owners and trainers. Not to mention, every household has a different dynamic: some are too hectic and erratic to allow a fearful dog to proceed quickly. Some owners will baby the fearful dog and actually encourage it out of "sympathy" for the dog's fear.

I do agree with Cameron that strong leadership is paramount to helping a fearful dog regardless of the cause. However, I do think there is a ceiling for the rehab of genetically flawed dogs, and no amount of leadership or training will give a dog something it wasn't born with. The truth as I see it, is that when the S#!t hits the fan, the dog reverts to genetics.

Jenn made a good comparison with drives. Certainly you can bring out, through various methods, more drive in a dog that isn't really driven. But you'll never make that dog as driven as one who was born with the drives genetically already in full-force. Predispositions matter.

In a controlled and manipulated situation (for a drastic example, withholding food until the desired response is seen), a trainer could make the driven dog *appear* driven to the casual observer but the dog's genetic core would mean, IMO, that it would be very easy for that dog to fall out of drive when the situations changed.

The same thing applies to a dog that is genetically sound but environmentally restricted...with all other things being equal: a genetically sound dog can rebound much more quickly than a dog that is just hardwired to be fearful from the beginning. And that genetically fearful dog will always fall back on that fear when their comfort zone (or their conditioning) fails.

It is, to me, a cracked foundation: Sure, if everything stays stable you may never know about it and you can make it look pretty and sound. But as soon as the storm blows in...then you see how well the house is built.

At any rate, currently for me--it's a question of expectations for the client: If presented with a puppy mill dog that's highly fearful I would not give up on the dog, nor would I advise the owner to. But I would caution them that genetically, the dog may never be the happy-go-lucky goofball they were looking for. It may not happen with the sound but environmentally-phobic dog either, but I think that it's more reasonable to expect to see more progress in the latter dog.

But the absence of any history makes it even more complicated and difficult to predict anything.

My thoughts
A dog with good genetics, even with poor, early environment, can develope confidence that will carry over to all environmental situations if brough back correctly.
A genetically unsound dog can be taught to accept a given situation but every new expierience will continue to create unsureness.
From my understanding of the Catahoula is that they have become popular in certain areas and many are now showing up in rescues and the pound. This will only add to the number of dogs with poor genetics.
Blind and or deaf pups are not uncommon in the breed now. It stands to reason that poor temperment will also show it ugly head.

I have something else to add to the equation, the nerves and temperament of the HUMAN the dog spends time with can and does influence any progress that can be made.

A dog with good nerves and basic sound temperament can be made a nervous wreck if the human the dog lives with and is in regular contact with is a nerve bag or accidentally reinforces the wrong behaviors!

A dog with "less than" nerves can be made much more stable and confident when in the company of a calm, self assured and clear headed human.

Watch an episode of Dog Whisperer and you will see this basic concept demonstrated.

I'm not sure exactly how this fits in to the discussion, but I think it's the most important component when figuring out how to help dogs. I'm not sure it's all that important to even identify if it's genetic or lack of socialization that causes fear issues, because in either case I would handle it the same way. If owners are going to make a commitment to the dog and not rehome it, they just need to take one day at a time and do whatever the dog needs at that particular time.

I'm probably just restating what has already been said, I admit I only skimmed some of the lengthy posts.

Bob, you are indeed correct about the recent trends in the Catahoula.

I believe mine probably has a double whammy: poor genetics AND lack of early socialization.

As for my mix pup, who knows.

Amber, I think your observations are correct. It would be nice however, to know for sure if the dog is genetically limited or environmentally. I guess there is no real way of telling, even by results.

My Catahoula for example, behaves a LOT better with me than he did with his adopter. But he is still a nervous dog. So is it the skill of the trainer? That is to say, if he had a really skilled handler, would he be able to be "normal" when with that handler? And would the "normal" be that his environmental concerns are "cured" and his good genetics (if they are there) have stabilized him, or, would he be just dealing with every situation but still genetically weak? Hmmmm...

Edit: Cindy posted while I was posting. So she actually answered some of my thoughts. Sorry!

In the last 4 or 5 years, Ed and I have been studying natural horsemanship and dabbling in some horse training with our Rocky Mountain Horses. My instructor has a saying " work with the horse that shows up!"

In other words, it doesn't matter what your horse acted like yesterday or the week before or even 10 minutes earlier. You work with what the animal presents to you at that particular moment, even if it's very far removed from your expectations and experience with that animal before. I had never thought about it before she said this, maybe I am slow.

Anyway, how many of us have dogs that we work with regularly that show some weird or even flaky behavior at times and we get upset because they don't typically act that way? I have now implemented "train the dog that shows up" into my philosophy and it's not only helped my dogs, but helped me with other aspects of my life as well. I know I have bad days where I am jumpy or grouchy or just plain unmotivated. I hope the people in my life will "deal with the Cindy that shows up" (are you reading this Ed?)