This is a good thread. I agree with much of what has been said, I hear people throwing around the word dominant a lot. I will admit I am guilty of using it in order to best explain myself.

IMO, there is dominant behavior, and there is dominance/dominant temperament/rank drive.

Dominant behavior being from lack of leadership.

Dominance/dominant temperament/rank drive being genetic and not something to take lightly.

So, a dog that is not genetically hardwired to be a dominant dog can still exhibit dominant behaviors and be dominant when faced with lack of leadership in a pack.

Most issues I see come from a dog running the show, but the dog is not truly a dominant animal. A dominant dog that is that way through inherited traits does not mix well into the average home. Lack of leadership or poor leadership with a dog like this will get someone seriously injured. I Have worked with a few, very few, truly dominant dogs. One had to be put down because a suitable home could not be found and I could not afford to properly contain him for the rest of his life.

Ok. Back to dominant behavior(from lack of leadership) a dog that is not genetically dominant can still put up quite a fight and give someone a hard time. This is kind of where rank drive comes in, for me. I know there is discussion regarding the use of "Drive" to describe every trait a dog has, but IMO rank drive is one of the valid ways to describe the behavior. The dog is driven to establish and maintain rank. As with any other drive this can vary from practically non existent to high, with most dogs falling in the low to mid range.

If a mid level rank driven dog has no leadership/poor leadership, the behaviors they exhibit are reinforced and essentially the drive is brought to its full potential in the dog. A dog can learn that these behaviors get it what it wants, and while the dog is not a highly rank driven animal, the frequent reinforcement of the dogs higher rank over its pack mates creates the issue.

So while the drive cannot be increased, it is reinforced the same way as drive building exercises fine tune prey drive and bring out all the dogs potential. So the dog is still not highly rank driven, but it has been ... encouraged(for lack of better word ATM) to be dominant within its pack by the reinforcement it recieves and the continued lack of leadership.

These are the dogs that a lot of trainers look at and say "That is a dominant dog." As compared to the dogs that have low rank drive and inconsistent leadership. While the leadership is still poor, the dog has less drive to gain and maintain rank and so the behavior is limited to what is reinforced and cannot exceed the dogs natural predisposition/level of rank drive.

So these mid range dogs that are classified as dominant (because the dominant behaviors they have exhibited have been reinforced) will put up a fight as you must work through the things that have been reinforced and correct/modify those behaviors. A low pack driven dog that is dominant by default thanks to lack of leadership is the dog that is the easiest to work with. Because they are not highly rank driven, they give up the position of dominance within the pack readily and are much more manageable Because they are not truly dominant dogs.

These dogs require leadership as any other, but a truly dominant dog will continue, as has been stated by others in this thread, to test *good* leadership whereas these dogs most likely will not. If they do it will be nothing to the extent that a truly dominant dog can take things.

Gosh am I saying this properly? Ugh. I need a new brain (Can I order one on Leerburg? )

What I am trying to say is that most dogs fall into the category of displaying moderate dominant behaviors as most dogs are not genetically high in rank drive. This is in direct comparrison to the dogs that are dominant/have high rank drive displaying the full range of dominant behaviors.

As for puppies, people get caught up in seeing puppies display dominant behavior with each other and will point and say "that is a dominant puppy, he will be a dominant dog" but as Mike said, there is a lot more to it than that. I had a mid-high (not high or extreme) rank driven dog and while I loved him I don't fancy having another and trying to train it for ringsport. I can handle dominant dogs but it is draining and a real test of your ability as a handler and me personally, I am not up the task at this point in life as I don't have the time or energy or resources... or need/want for a truly high rank driven/dominant dog.

I see people describing dogs that are hard to physical correction being labeled as dominant. Working dogs have so much more drive than average Joe Dog that people can see high drive, hardness, and sharpness as being aggressive dominant. Drive often over rides normal sensitivities to stimuli and correction - which I personally see as a training issue.

I laugh when someone gives a dog a correction, the dog ignores the correction and I hear someone say "Dominant.." purely based on a dog ignoring a correction.

Anyhow. I will stop rambling.

 Quote: michael_wise

Would the "old" military sentry dogs be considered dominant? Or is that a whole new training/aggressive dog thread?

I've seen both, with current MWDs.
I've seen dogs mistaken as dominant, that were really handler aggressive as a result of bad/poor handling and training.

Fort Lewis currently has (and has had for some time) a MWD named "Sue". She is the definition of a truly dominant dog.
Almost every handler that has been through Lewis, has a story about Sue biting, or almost biting them, because they were, as Mike said, "in her space".

No amount of retraining will "fix" Sue, because it isn't a problem that was "created". Sue is just an evil, dominant little bitch. Proper handling can help prevent injuries, but the bottom line is, get in her space, or correct her when she doesn't feel like putting up with it, and she will try to eat you.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

I laugh when someone gives a dog a correction, the dog ignores the correction and I hear someone say "Dominant.." purely based on a dog ignoring a correction.

A dominant dog would turn around and "correct" the handler.

Failure to submit is not equal to dominance.

 Quote:

That pretty much sums him up.

Somehow I doubt that. You've gone from most dogs being "overly dominant" to dealing with a single 7 month old puppy that acts like an average Malinois in the wrong hands. I can't debate with people that adapt their stories.

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

Somehow I doubt that. You've gone from most dogs being "overly dominant" to dealing with a single 7 month old puppy that acts like an average Malinois in the wrong hands. I can't debate with people that adapt their stories.

Then I guess it's good I'm not looking for a debate.
As for adapting stories, well if being unclear, then elaborating to clear up a post that wasn't as clear as it should have been is adapting, then alright, fine. Guilty as charged. You asked me a question and I answered it, and gave as much info as I could to try and make everything as clear as possible. I guess I was under the assumption that you were actually asking me to find out more info, not to slam my response.

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

IMO, there is dominant behavior, and there is dominance/dominant temperament/rank drive.

Dominant behavior being from lack of leadership.

Dominance/dominant temperament/rank drive being genetic and not something to take lightly.

So, a dog that is not genetically hardwired to be a dominant dog can still exhibit dominant behaviors and be dominant when faced with lack of leadership in a pack.

Thanks Jennifer, that answers a few questions that I had.

That was a good explanation, Jenn. I also like Alyssa's example of "Sue".

So, many of the so-called "dominant dog" problems that come across this board are probably due to lack of leadership, lack of pack structure, and lack of fair and consistant rules. Dominant behavior emerges when no leadership, or poor leadership, is present.

I wish it was possible to see an example of a true dominant dog. Visuals are always helpful but this is probably one of those things not easily captured on video.

Out of curiosity, does anyone on this board/in this thread have a dominant dog?

Not it.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

A dominant dog would turn around and "correct" the handler.

Failure to submit is not equal to dominance.

Alyssa gets it!!

What a great thread! For novice trainers like me and the average pet owners this thread is a wealth of knowledge. This may sound like a strange question but in each litter of puppies is there a dominant puppy or do truly dominant dogs come once in a blue moon? Also is being the alpha and being dominant one in the same or is there a difference?