Those links (both contain anecdotal evidence from Dr. Joel Weinstock) are very interesting.

It does seem that maybe the discussion takes issue more with "regular de-worming,"or the practice of automatically de-worming, worm evidence or no (QUOTE: We are told to worm puppies at 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 weeks of age, and then at 6 months, and twice a year (sometimes more) after that. END), than with worming if there is evidence of worms.

There is a mention of "some worms" not being harmful, but not enough discussion of which are which .... I'd like to read more, though, despite the anecdotal nature of the info.



Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/12/2008 01:35 PM)
Edit reason: add the last 7 words

Good thread.

 Quote: emily oliver

#1. She has at least tapeworms, I see a couple every other poop.

 Quote: emily oliver

They did the fecal test today and it came back negative. Although I know she has tapeworms, there just must not have been any in the sample.

How do you know she has tapeworms? You're sure these aren't maggots from flies, right?

For fecals, I take 2 samples in (one on each side of a bag), so they can check both right there with better "coverage".

 Quote: shody lytle

 Quote:

I have, on the other hand, seen the damaging and debilitating effects of of persistent untreated worm infestations on strays and rescues.

Who are getting little to no proper nutrition, are under extreme stress and exposed to the elements. All a sure way to supress or damage an immune system.

Here are two links:

http://www.rawlearning.com/worming.html

The study:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3287733.stm

The BBC link does not describe a scientific study. This is an anecdotal account of just two individuals with immune-system disorders (ulcerative colitis and hay fever) who claimed that having intestinal worms alleviated their symptoms. I note the researcher with hookworms thinks that worms in humans "damp down" the immune system.

If indeed this is the case (and he has no data), is reduced immune system function something you would want to induce in a young puppy?

Sorry, but I really do believe that worm infestations in puppies should be treated. It is wishful thinking to assume that it will not be a problem because the puppy is well-fed and otherwise cared for. Sure - the damaging effects of worms will show quicker in a dog that also suffers from poor nutrition and other stresses, but so will any other health problem.

One other point: even if your healthy raw-fed adult dog can tolerate carrying a worm load without too many side-effects, it will continue to be a source of infestation for other dogs and puppies.

Sarah (Ward, not Sarah Morris ): there's a difference between a small number of worms in a perfectly healthy dog versus a worm "infested" dog that's obviously debilitated as a result.

The extent of the parasitic load is certainly an important factor to consider in determining treatment options (slower gentler methods vs more toxic but more rapid treatment).
Let's not completely change the context of the discussion here.

No "infestation" is considered healthy for any animal.


The following is off topic, but is in response to your comment:

Worms HAVE however been used to treat certain autoimmune conditions affecting the digestive tract in humans (yes, in humans). With some success too, as far as I recall.

Shody made the point that intestinal worms have been around as long as people & dogs have. This doesn't mean that worms are HEALTHY for their hosts. What it does mean, however, is that hosts have evolved effective defense mechanisms against them.

I'll see if I can dig up those human studies for you Sarah (off topic here though), but the reason the worms helped is that the patients had an over-active component in their immune systems that was attacking their intestines and causing a great deal of damage.

It was the very part of the immune system that evolved specifically to deal with intestinal parasites.
It happened to be far more aggressive in those particular patients than in the average human, and having no worms to deal with, the immune cells had directed their attacks at the healthy intestinal lining.

When the worms were introduced into those patients, the immune cells in question had their "job" back and ignored the intestines.

Needless to say, that level of immune aggressiveness would've been a great advantage back when our ancestors were dealing with worm infestations on a regular basis. It would also be an advantage in third-world countries where the body is constantly bombarded by parasites.
On the positive side, you don't see autoimmune diseases in those conditions; the immune system is well occupied dealing with real threats so it doesn't get a chance to start attacking healthy cells.

Edit: just saw the links. Not the studies I was talking about, but it does cover the main point.

We're not talking about suppressing the entire immune system here. It's just a certain type of immune cells that are programmed to respond to intestinal parasites.

I'm not saying don't treat. But don't worry so much, and treat more gently and only when truly needed.

I love this quote from the following article:

"What if I told you," Joel Weinstock said, "there were countries where the doctors had never seen hay fever?"

It is another piece of evidence, another "aha" moment in the global medical mystery that Weinstock - the chief of gastroenterology and hepatology at Tufts-New England Medical Center - has narrowed down to one chief suspect: the worms.

Weinstock, 59, specializes in studying why immunological diseases - everything from hay fever and asthma to diabetes and multiple sclerosis - are on the rise in developed countries but remain relatively uncommon in undeveloped countries. He believes these diseases, many of which were almost unheard of 100 years ago, are because of changes in our environment, a lack of exposure to something. And he thinks that something may be the worms."

If this hypothesis is proven, it could shed some light on the very high incidence of allergies in dogs. No one can argue that allergies are on the rise.

Article:

http://www.boston.com/news/science/articles/2007/12/31/his_parasite_theory_stirs_a_revolution/


Here is a little more in depth article:

http://curezone.com/forums/am.asp?i=24225

Yuko's point about certain kinds of immune system disorders in humans responding to the presence of worms is interesting. Researchers in the UK have also proposed that the dramatic rise in hay fever and other allergies in children may be linked to a lack of exposure to good old dirt and a general array of germs when they are young - it's as if the immune system doesn't get calibrated early in life, so it overreacts to stimuli later. But this doesn't mean that parasites - whether worms or other forms - in dogs or humans are not potentially damaging to health.

Seems we would agree that repeatedly worming dogs as a precautionary measure (rather than treating when worms are confirmed as present) is just as undesirable as routine annual vaccinations. And Shody is right that there has been a big increase in problems with canine allergies. But I suspect this has more to do with feeding processed kibble and over-vaccinating than with occasional deworming.

Here's a review article that explains how helminths (parasitic worms) might help in some intestinal autoimmune diseases.

• David E. Elliott, Robert W. Summers and Joel V. Weinstock. Helminths and the modulation of mucosal inflammation. Current Opinion in Gastroenterology, 2005, 21:51–58

They cover the etiology of inflammatory bowel disease (disregulated immune response, such as insufficient regulation of T helper cell responses), they explain which immune regulatory circuits are induced by the helminths and how this may help treat the disease. They mention the epidemiological findings too (incidence of IBD in different places and over time).

The review also details the animal studies and clinical studies that were done. (Not just relying on anecdotal or epidemiological data like the link that was posted earlier in the thread).

Clinical studies

• Use of Trichuris suis (a porcine whipworm) in 4 Crohn's disease (CD) patients & 3 ulcerative colitis patients.
  3 of the 4 CD patients went into remission and all the others experienced improvements. (They determined remission & improvement using a point-based activity index specific to each disease).
  
  
• Use of T. suis again in 29 CD patients (no placebo control). "At week 24 of treatment, 79.3% experienced a response and 72.4% were in remission. There were no side effects or complications attributable to T."
  
  
• Double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of T. suis in 54 patients with active ulcerative colitis (30 got T. suis, 24 the placebo).
  43.3% of the T. suis group improved compared with 16.7% that got the placebo.
  Patients were also evaluated with the Simple Clinical Colitis Activity Index (SCCAI). By week 6 the T. suis treated patients had significant SCCAI improvements (lower scores) whereas the placebo patients had no SCCAI changes.
  
  The researchers followed with a crossover study (switching the treatment & placebo groups).
  "After crossover, 56.3% of patients receiving T. suis responded compared with 13.3% of those receiving placebo (P = 0.02). Combining both data sets, 47.8% of patients who received T. suis responded compared with 15.5% of those who received placebo (P = 0.002)."

So as you can see, it's not just anecdotal evidence that supports the potentially beneficial role of worms in some human diseases, as some news links out there may suggest.

While the full article isn't available (unless you have a university or other institution login), the abstract can be found on journal search sites such as pubmed: The article on pubmed

Pubmed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/
Type in "helminths inflammatory control" or "helminths mucosal inflammation" or "helminths inflammatory bowel disease (or whatever other disease you're interested in)" and you can see just how much reading there is on the subject

There's also a huge number of articles and studies done on the protective effects of enteric flora ("good bacteria" in the gut), such as what you would get from probiotics or early childhood exposure to everyday "germs".

Obviously the immune system is so complicated (especially when you include all the environmental interactions that impact its activity) that autoimmune diseases are unlikely to have just one cause. There's usually a genetic influence, and as for the environmental causes, there are usually a number of them at play in any particular disease.

Very interesting stuff

Wow, awesome discussion and excellent replies. More than I expected but exactly what I hoped for.

The worms in her stool do look like one of the pictures of tapeworms in that link. They are the size of rice but move a little when poked (with a blade of grass, lol). I haven't seen any in the last few poops. I know that they aren't maggots. And it's not like every poop is loaded in them. It's been only a couple in every few poops. I'll take in another sample in a week or so if they continue to show up. She did have fleas but I took care of it with a natural flea shampoo and am now using Neem spray as a preventative.

I remember reading somewhere that 85 to 95% of people have at least some degree of worms.

I've read over the Wolf Creek Ranch pages many times. Also the Caber Feidh site and the Yahoo groups. Along with a variety of books, namely the ones by Don Hamilton, Pitcairn, Goldstein, Driscoll,and John Clifton. I am a reading and research nut, my co-workers say I need a hobby.

I don't want to be scared into deciding either way. I am trying to make the best decision based on the facts and my situation. I am aware that there is no totally safe choice in this matter.

I asked my vet if she had dealt with any parvo cases that happened after the pup was vaccinated. She said not up here in Maine but when she worked down South it had happened. But she said it was the owners fault for not listening to her advice about not taking the puppies anywhere. On walks, to Petco, etc...when I mentioned where I work she said to disinfect my shoes before coming inside. But I take my pup to work everyday, I can't crate her for 8 hours during the day!

I didn't get out of work early enough today to call the homeopathic vet. I'll have to wait until my day off Monday.

 Quote: Emily Oliver

I'll take in another sample in a week or so if they continue to show up. ... I've read over the Wolf Creek Ranch pages many times. Also the Caber Feidh site ..... with a variety of books, namely the ones by Don Hamilton, Pitcairn, Goldstein, Driscoll,and John Clifton. I am a reading and research nut,.... I don't want to be scared into deciding either way. I am trying to make the best decision based on the facts and my situation. I am aware that there is no totally safe choice in this matter.

A model dog owner, IMHO!