yes, his breeder shows and is a major judge, out on the show circuit every weekend. so she trains, handles and judges. i was afraid that the baiting would be a problem, since all it does is lure the dog into looking pretty. and i think it has been part of the problem. i dont know how long ago she had stopped working on trying to show him...his ears are terrible, not coming close to the tulip of the standard, but stand straight up as if he were a GSD.

my grandmother was a breeeder.shower of what are now called American Cocker Spaniels, but back then the English and American were considered the same breed, they didnt worry about baiting, from what my mom told me. they were more interested in their working abilities and how well their physical build fit the standard too.

Gail, with this dog, food is your best friend.

Rewards and marker training will be the mechanism for building the bond with this dog. Start by loading the marker in the fashion I described. This can be done sitting down, by the way.

After you have done this, I recommend your first behavior to teach is for the dog to look into your eyes. My command for this is 'Watch me!'. Getting the dog comfortable looking into your eyes is a good step toward building a bond.

Work today on loading the marker and ask away if you have any questions! Once this is accomplished, we can go over how to start getting the dog to look into your eyes...

first, thank yous to all who have tried to help me. but the systems didnt seem to work with this dog...if anything, it made him more messed up. now he acts more confused, and when not flaked out of on the floor with the other dogs, is on my bed, where i was trying the 'food loading' and tried to minmise the amount to one very small bit of Iams puppy biscuit (his breeder's bait and his fave). he will do a sit while there. once. and if no food comes, but only praise and petting, acts miffed and leaves. he wont even try to obey...has to physically put in position wanted, then reward in quantity, and thats how it has to be every time.

i had already given up on him, when i got this Leerburg newsletter last week http://leerburg.com/flix/player.php?id=745, at the end he mentions some dogs are totally food driven. well, that sounds exactly like this poor guy. we are sending him back to the breeder, and she will rehome him. hes going to be tough even as a pet, i think, since he doesnt even respond and come to his name...

so now im back to GSDs. cant get greyhounds here in Kansas like we used to, with the closure of the two tracks. and im afraid of how every GSD i get always winds up with the allergy to fleas that seems to be incureable by any vet we can take them to. is it possible for a breed to be allergic to a person? sure feels that way.

 Quote: gail nichols

first, thank yous to all who have tried to help me. but the systems didnt seem to work with this dog...if anything, it made him more messed up. now he acts more confused, and when not flaked out of on the floor with the other dogs, is on my bed, where i was trying the 'food loading' and tried to minmise the amount to one very small bit of Iams puppy biscuit (his breeder's bait and his fave). he will do a sit while there. once. and if no food comes, but only praise and petting, acts miffed and leaves. he wont even try to obey...has to physically put in position wanted, then reward in quantity, and thats how it has to be every time.

Loading the marker is not (NOT!) the part in which food is phased out or should even be thought about phasing out ....

There are so many problems in just this paragraph ....

Gail, did you watch the free videos of marker training?

Did you read this: "Start by loading the marker in the fashion I described. This can be done sitting down, by the way.

After you have done this, I recommend your first behavior to teach is for the dog to look into your eyes. My command for this is 'Watch me!'. Getting the dog comfortable looking into your eyes is a good step toward building a bond.

Work today on loading the marker and ask away if you have any questions! Once this is accomplished, we can go over how to start getting the dog to look into your eyes..."

Because we never heard back.

Did you work out a way for the dog to have regular structured exercise?

Nothing I read convinced me that there was anything "wrong" with this dog.

I'm afraid that this is going to be a cycle. How is another dog going to get structured exercise? How is this "he doesnt even respond and come to his name..." going to be resolved? (That is absolutely a handler problem ... not a dog problem.)

I/we entreated you to learn marker training (not "more or less" and not "well, some of the videos I saw must have had markers in them"). I still entreat you to do that, and to set up structured daily exercise for the dog, any dog.

This is probably going to segue into me saying what I want to say in a manner that does your future dog no good at all. I hope others can do much better.

Absolutely nothing wrong with Connie's suggestions and later comments.
Interpretation is where the problem arises.

"IT messed him up"!

I used to start obedience classes by telling everyone that the biggest problem our dogs will ever face is the turd stuck at the other end of the leash.
I need to go sit in a corner and bite my lip for a while.

Connie, Bob, and many others have given you the SOLUTION to your training problems. Collies can be hard to motivate. Work. It's hard. Marker train. It works.

On fleas- Many dogs are allergic to fleas. It's pretty common. Not hard to prevent an issue if you get all the animals in your home on a monthly flea preventative. Easy Peasy.

 Quote: Gail Nichols

'food loading' and tried to minmise the amount to one very small bit of Iams puppy biscuit (his breeder's bait and his fave).

Another side note. Many of 'us' marker trainers use really super high value treats to load the mark, and to train with. Iams puppy biscuits would not do much for many of our dogs. Try thinking along the lines of cheddar cheese in pencil eraser size pieces, tiny bits of chicken breast, low fat/sodium hot dogs..... that is what many dogs consider high value. In marker training, soft treats, that require little no no chewing work best.

firsr of all, i do appreciate the suggestions and help the kind folk here have offered me, to try to help me out with the problems with my smooth collie. but a combination of things prevented me from spending the extra amount of time with him that might have made him interested in/enjoy training sessions. i did watch the videos, read (as usual! this is one of my fave reference sites), and consulted with other collie owners as well as his breeder. the consensus was that he would be happier going to a home where he could just be a pet. he simply has none of the interests that made training fun for the other collies i've trained over the last 10 years. maybe its a quirk of the smooth variety-i have no idea, all i've worked with have been roughs, and they took to SD training like a duck to water, especially if i was training them to be autism SDs, where part of their job is to be a social bridge and get to be petted by strangers!

so this morning, Todd is on his way back home to his breeder, who, im sure, will easily find a family for him, with his stunning looks. it hurts very much to have had to do this...even though i knew i had him on a testing out agreement, i came to love him, and it hurts to have to send him home. but with three dogs already, and hopes of finding a dog that will work out for me, we just cant keep every one i test. so, please, im asking...dont be angry or critical over how i handled this. if my health were better, i might have made a better job of it. but then i wouldnt have needed an SD anyway. one reason i need an SD is to help with my depression, and losing this beautiful boy has made it much worse this week, and for some time to come. please, dont make it worse.

again, thank you, friends, for your help, and God bless and keep you close.

This will NOT serve you, Gail:

"... he simply has none of the interests that made training fun for the other collies i've trained over the last 10 years."

This will:
" ... a combination of things prevented me from spending the extra amount of time with him that might have made him interested in/enjoy training sessions."


Throughout, the dog has been at fault in your posts. I haven't seen that at all, and I fear your acquiring another dog with whom you can't spend the time needed and for whom you can't really learn marker training. I strongly believe that you need both a trainer and someone to exercise the dog.


I hope you acknowledge this, get the help you need, and get the dog who will benefit so hugely from that help.

 Quote: connie sutherland

This will NOT serve you, Gail:

"... he simply has none of the interests that made training fun for the other collies i've trained over the last 10 years."

This will:
" ... a combination of things prevented me from spending the extra amount of time with him that might have made him interested in/enjoy training sessions."


Throughout, the dog has been at fault in your posts. I haven't seen that at all, and I fear your acquiring another dog with whom you can't spend the time needed and for whom you can't really learn marker training. I strongly believe that you need both a trainer and someone to exercise the dog.

I hope you acknowledge this, get the help you need, and get the dog who will benefit so hugely from that help.

I agree...