BTW, have you seen this terrific video?
http://leerburg.com/219.htm

Hey All.. Thanks for the continued support.

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I have a question. How does she know when you have no food reward on the recall?

Can you tell me exactly how you taught, say, the recall?

Well, I almost feel like she senses when I have a treat or when I don't have a treat. I started training her on a long 30' lead with recalls. Then I moved to recalls with distractions by having treats in one hand and having my mother on the other side of the yard with her with a treat rolled up in her hand. I would then say, "Here", and stand-up and use my arm to make the inward movement towards my chest as the visual command. I started off with high reward treats like Steak and Chicken b/c I was told that recalls should be the most important training and the need for the "best" type of treat was needed to ensure how important this was.

I can totally see how it has now turned into Bribes.

I play frisbee and tug with here all the time and I almost feel like she enjoys it. I never let her end the exercise and make sure I am the one that end's it. (most of the time)

I can totally see how I can be confusing my dog. I have always been craving her eye contact during training, but it's not always there. I feel like I am always her afterthought. I know my friends Border Collies lock eyes and never stop. I am not sure if my breed is "capable" of this. Is that a wrong statement?

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In my house it is known as "Dog in ass". Everywhere I go my dog is up my butt. God forbid I close the door to the bathroom, she thinks I might jump out the bathroom window and leave her forever. Believe me, it gets real old after a short while. Everytime I turn around, I have a dog under my feet (this is why I LOVE their kennels).

This is something I would love at this point. Or even a little tail wag and excitement.

I have clearly confused my dog at all ends. My dog's tail is always up, so I am not worried that she is scared, perhaps intimidated in me, but never tail between the leg.

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It would be good, I think, to figure out what this was/is. I think it would also be good to go back to basic obedience with marker training done in short, upbeat, no-corrections sessions, with high-value treats (used as rewards rather than bribes); I think that this is a confidence-builder and that the sharing of good times is a bond-strengthener. I'd probably start doing this right away, and keep the sessions so short and so upbeat that the dog wants more when it's over.

Please clarify "High value" treats. Do you mean like steak and chicken? Where do I start? Basic, sit, stay, wait, here?

How bout my last question.

Could be it possible I spend way TOO much time with my dog?

 Quote: Josh Goldfarb

... Could be it possible I spend way TOO much time with my dog? ...

No.

While that could tone down wild excitement when you leave and come back, I guess, particularly since you taught calm greetings (and nothing wrong with that, IMHO), it won't diminish the dog's happiness to be in your company.

But maybe you are working the dog hard? Or maybe you seem to be driven rather than enjoying her?

In the little training session below, I'd make it a point to just have fun with her.

In fact, for me, teaching the recall requires that I am the funnest thing in the area.

 Quote: josh goldfarb

.... Well, I almost feel like she senses when I have a treat or when I don't have a treat. I started training her on a long 30' lead with recalls. Then I moved to recalls with distractions by having treats in one hand and having my mother on the other side of the yard with her with a treat rolled up in her hand. I would then say, "Here", and stand-up and use my arm to make the inward movement towards my chest as the visual command. I started off with high reward treats like Steak and Chicken b/c I was told that recalls should be the most important training and the need for the "best" type of treat was needed to ensure how important this was.

Not much "sensing" needed to figure out that you have treats in that description. If it's easy to tell when you have a bribe, then it's just as easy to tell that you don't.

Without distractions, you might want to go back to step 1 of the recall. It's not a backward step. You did lots of good stuff! It's just changing the tone and m.o. of the training sessions.

Since you don't mention your marker (verbal or clicker), I'm wondering if you are actually marker training? If not, you want to start with charging (loading) your marker.

Then when the dog is starting to look for the reward when you give the marker (verbal or click), I would grab my high-value treats (yes, tiny M+M size bits of meat and cheese are perfect) in a bait bag, and I like to wear mine in back, or in an open baggy in your sweatshirt pocket, or something like that. Then I would re-visit my recall training; I'd call her from a few feet away, keeping my hands neutral, and marking her compliance before rewarding.

I would make this a short and very fun session, with no comment for non-compliance (just reeling her in), but I don't even think that will come up, because you will be just a few feet away, and you will be marking and rewarding with terrific rewards.

No need to add distance or distractions yet, and I'd mark/reward for 100% of her successes for now.

Short! All I would want to do for now is have a happy successful session.

And I would make it a point to have fun. What does the dog like? Does she like rubs? You mentioned playing tug.

YOU want to be the fun in the dog's life.

BTW, excitement when others come to the door is normal, as someone pointed out. But I'd try to focus myself away from the whole greeting thing for now. I'd start in little ways to have a good time, to praise/play/marker-train.

Another exercise can be "look," which is taught just like anything else. Have you actually marked/rewarded eye contact?

And to add to Connie's recommendations for the recall (and I'm paraphrasing what she's said many times in other posts)

Make sure you are using your recall word to call the dog for every good, fun thing you do.

Recall for dinner, recall for a ride in the car, recall for a fun game outside, recall for that piece of leftover steak...

You want that recall word to generate a positive vibe for the dog, so only use it for positive associations. ie No recall for going into the house (if your dog prefers to be outside), no recall for taking that stolen sock out of his mouth, etc.

I try to work the recall traning into our play sessions, so that it is much more like play than training. I still have a ways to go, but when I give my recall command, she generally comes flying because she knows it means something good...

 Quote: josh goldfarb

I play frisbee and tug with here all the time and I almost feel I have always been craving her eye contact during training, but it's not always there. I feel like I am always her afterthought. I know my friends Border Collies lock eyes and never stop. I am not sure if my breed is "capable" of this. Is that a wrong statement?

She's capable of it; you just have to teach it. Start when she's hungry, in an area where there are no distractions. Use very small pieces of high value treats(thumbnail size or smaller). That would be real meat, cheese, etc. If you do this in the kitchen you can place the treats out of sight on the counter, so she can't see them.

Put her in a sit and stand in front of her and wait. As soon as she looks at your eyes, mark (click, or 'yes!' ), and reward. And repeat! Do not give a command to the behavior until she is reliably looking in your eyes.

Initially, you want to mark immediately when she looks in your eyes. As she figures out the game, you can extend the length of time she'll look in your eyes by delaying the mark a few seconds. If you work on this for 5 minutes a day for 3 or 4 days, she will be really good at it.

Once she's got it in the kitchen, switch context (ie do it in a different location)

Good luck!
PS my dog goes nuts whenever my husband walks through the door (but not when I do); it took me awhile to wrap my head around it. She listens much better to me though...

Connie -

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But maybe you are working the dog hard? Or maybe you seem to be driven rather than enjoying her?

How do I know if I am physically working her too hard? We go for long walks all the time and I run her 3 - 4 times a week for a few miles at a time on the bike. (She runs next to my bike on a short lead)

Connie, Perhaps you can help me understand this more.

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Since you don't mention your marker (verbal or clicker), I'm wondering if you are actually marker training? If not, you want to start with charging (loading) your marker.

I am using verbal markers as "YES" What do you mean by Charging (Loading) your marker?

Also, whenever I was training her outside, we would stop every few minutes and then play tug. Then we would go back to training. On and off..

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YOU want to be the fun in the dog's life.

That is I think my underlying problem... I want to be fun in her life and not the one who always works her so she can't stand me.
That is almost how I feel.. Part of my guilt I guess...

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nitially, you want to mark immediately when she looks in your eyes. As she figures out the game, you can extend the length of time she'll look in your eyes by delaying the mark a few seconds. If you work on this for 5 minutes a day for 3 or 4 days, she will be really good at it.

Not a bad idea.. The funny thing is, I make her wait and then we she locks eyes with me I say "YES" and give her the treat.

I think I have been doing things wrong in some ways... It's a learning experience

I can post a bit later about loading (or charging) your marker (or someone will ) .

I would pay particular attention to two big things: As Lynne says "Make sure you are using your recall word to call the dog for every good, fun thing you do.

Recall for dinner, recall for a ride in the car, recall for a fun game outside, recall for that piece of leftover steak...

You want that recall word to generate a positive vibe for the dog, so only use it for positive associations. ie No recall for going into the house (if your dog prefers to be outside), no recall for taking that stolen sock out of his mouth, etc."

To me, not using this excellent way to reinforce the recall is a huge waste. Recall = great stuff. If great stuff is about to happen, use your recall.

Second, are you correcting yet? Because right now, with your new goal of forging a strong bond, I'd back way up in training to Step 1, which has no proofing for distractions and no correcting. (I mean "yet.")

I would make every tiny little training session be so much fun that the dog is disappointed when it's over. I would never let a session go so long that either one of you becomes bored or frustrated, and I would always begin and end on a high note (with something you KNOW the dog knows and can be marked/rewarded for). You mentioned that your dog is indeed food-driven (a great thing!), and I'd use that. But I would also use whatever else the dog loves. No reason the dog cannot be marked and rewarded for three or four things and then round out the session with a fun romp or tug or belly-rub.... you know your dog.

I have one who does not care for rubs. All he really wants, I know, is a food jackpot. But I have one who lives for a belly-rub, and so on. As another member here says (Bob Scott), learn your dog's currency. What does the dog love? Incorporate that into your training.

E.T.A. Is your marker "yes" appropriately positive? Have you tried it without the dog?

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/17/2008 05:32 PM)
Edit reason: eta

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=209750
(charging your marker)

http://leerburg.com/qamarkers.htm

http://leerburg.com/219.htm