Cool. Thank you once again, Connie.

I try to remind myself that he's both still young and still fairly new to us.

Coming back to this topic.

Here's a question, poor early socialization or a fearful dog? I'm leaning toward the former.

I took Duke for a walk the other evening at a different time than usual. A gentleman with a nice looking adult GSD male mistook Duke for another dog that his dog was friends with. His dog comes over and I started backpedaling to keep a few inches of distance between their noses while saying "this dog's name is Duke and Duke's not friendly, Duke's not friendly...". He came over, got his dog, apologized, we shook hands, and then chatted for a few minutes. Duke was clearly scared, but he was interested and didn't show any signs of aggression. This gentleman was nice enough to make himself small and offer Duke a finger to smell. Duke walked up, body height down by about 1/3, and smelled his finger. Duke's hackles went down and he stood all the way up pretty much instantly. I thanked this nice man, shook his hand again, and parted ways. Afterward, Duke was literally hopping with excitement.

This really seems more like poor early socialization, to me. I would think that a fearful dog 1) wouldn't have gone over so quickly or 2) been so happy so quickly. IF, this is poor socialization I would think that I need to work on it sooner rather than later. Like I said earlier, I can walk him down a city street in the middle of the day and he won't show any signs of fear or aggression. He just doesn't respond well to people walking right up to him.

Hey, thanks, Jessica,

I read that post in the other topic and actually thought about linking to this topic, hahaha.

I see what you're saying. He's a lot more confident on his territory (our yard) and will do the one woof thing.

I don't let strangers pet my dogs either, I'm more just looking for him to be relaxed. It seems to me like this is an issue that he's capable of working past, since he does bounce back so quickly and show a strong willingness to explore. I think I'll try the Vet idea, it'll also help to get him used to longer car rides.

Is this something a SchH club can help me with or something they'll want me to sort out before going?

In most clubs they will be happy to help. Most often everyone is so focused on their own dogs that yours will get ignored by default. He will see other dogs working (mostly in OB) and get the chance to see a lot of different stuff without the pressure. Just be honest with the TD before bringing him out to make sure it is the right time distraction wise.

I would still do the other socialization stuff at the same time. The goal (not always met, but usually pretty close) is a dog that calmly watches what is going on around him in a very relaxed manner. It is good that you can see what his confident body language is on home turf. That is the picture to aim for.

From everything you have described about him here and other posts, he sounds like he is in the hands of a handler that is willing to devote the time and energy to him in whatever fashion it may be. I'd say his outlook is very good!

Cool. Thank you, very much.

Six months later, this dog is becoming quite the deterrent. Three more major shows of aggression, both within the last month or so.

1) The cable guy came over to give us a new internet router after some network update rendered our old one useless. My wife took Duke out through the side door and put him in her station wagon. The dog was not happy in the slightest. He barked aggressively at the door the entire time the cable guy was here. He had to go back to his van to get something and when he walked past the car Duke made him jump sideways. I gave him a quick tug session after the guy left to help release some of the energy.

2) My wife came home the other day wearing one of my beanies (knit hats). Duke was at the water dish across the house and he stopped mid drink, growled deeply, and then charged her barking aggressively. She looked at me, took off the beanie and said "whoa buddy, it's me". He pulled his ears back in acknowledgment, turned around a few feet short of her, and trotted back to the water dish to finish his drink. He seems to bark at my wife a lot when he doesn't know it's her, hahaha. He's never shown even the slightest bit of aggression towards her when he knows it's her, so we're not concerned about it. Anyway, I thought that was a pretty courageous response to a perceived intruder and a great response to recognizing a non-threat. Our doors are always locked so if anyone other than us walks into the house they aren't supposed to be here.

3) My wife took him out to go potty in the front yard a few weeks back, while I was asleep. She said there were two teenage boys hanging out at our mailbox, which is hardly the spot to chill if you knew the area. Duke was alert but, not showing aggression. She asked them if they wouldn't mind not standing there and one of them turned towards her and said, "what did you say to me?". The second he took a step into the yard and towards her, Duke lit up on him like a Christmas tree and he stopped in his tracks. Her description was that Duke almost pulled her off balance when he charged forward and then went up on his back feet straining against the leash, while barking very aggressively. The young man and his friend looked at each other and started walking down the road. She politely thanked them through the barks. Duke did his business after the boys were down the road a few houses and they came back inside.

As with previous aggressive episodes, his posture and behavior didn't seem to be fearful. He's definitely a sharp dog that's displayed fear in social situations, but I'm back to believing that his aggression is territorial and possibly protection based instead of quite so fear based. He's always advancing on what he's barking at with a forward, upright, and confident posture. I haven't gotten him into training yet because of continued financial reasons. 2010 should hopefully see us clear and I should be able to get him temp tested and into training to direct some of that aggression.

You questioned if your dog exhibits poor socialization or fear. It need not be an either or. And no matter which, the dog exhibits defensive, responses. The more training you do, the more control you will have over his reactions and themore confidence you will build. And training can reiforce your leadershipposition, which also give the dog confidence.

 Quote: scott garrett

Six months later, this dog is becoming quite the deterrent. Three more major shows of aggression, both within the last month or so.

1) The cable guy came over to give us a new internet router after some network update rendered our old one useless. My wife took Duke out through the side door and put him in her station wagon. The dog was not happy in the slightest. He barked aggressively at the door the entire time the cable guy was here. He had to go back to his van to get something and when he walked past the car Duke made him jump sideways.

Just the fact that after he told you there was a stranger there, he didn't calm down; indicates insecurity. A confident dog woulddeliver his warning but once the person had been acceptedon the property by the pack leader; would have been calm and either nuetral or curious about the activity.

 Quote: scott garrett

I gave him a quick tug session after the guy left to help release some of the energy.

I would work on gaining control of him in situations where strangers are allowed on the property, instead of rewarding his over reacting.

 Quote: scott garrett

2) My wife came home the other day wearing one of my beanies (knit hats). Duke was at the water dish across the house and he stopped mid drink, growled deeply, and then charged her barking aggressively. She looked at me, took off the beanie and said "whoa buddy, it's me". He pulled his ears back in acknowledgment, turned around a few feet short of her, and trotted back to the water dish to finish his drink. He seems to bark at my wife a lot when he doesn't know it's her, hahaha. He's never shown even the slightest bit of aggression towards her when he knows it's her, so we're not concerned about it. Anyway, I thought that was a pretty courageous response to a perceived intruder and a great response to recognizing a non-threat. Our doors are always locked so if anyone other than us walks into the house they aren't supposed to be here.

That is NOT a couragous response, but a fear aggressive response. A confident dog who had not been taught a specific action, would alert to something or someone unusual; but would evaluate the situation before reacting aggressively. He would not assume a threat and try to immediately intimidate what might be harmful, or attack before being attacked.

And just because so far the dog has stopped before harming your wife does not mean that will always be the case.

 Quote: scott garrett

3) My wife took him out to go potty in the front yard a few weeks back, while I was asleep. She said there were two teenage boys hanging out at our mailbox, which is hardly the spot to chill if you knew the area. Duke was alert but, not showing aggression. She asked them if they wouldn't mind not standing there and one of them turned towards her and said, "what did you say to me?". The second he took a step into the yard and towards her, Duke lit up on him like a Christmas tree and he stopped in his tracks. Her description was that Duke almost pulled her off balance when he charged forward and then went up on his back feet straining against the leash, while barking very aggressively. The young man and his friend looked at each other and started walking down the road. She politely thanked them through the barks. Duke did his business after the boys were down the road a few houses and they came back inside.

As with previous aggressive episodes, his posture and behavior didn't seem to be fearful. He's definitely a sharp dog that's displayed fear in social situations, but I'm back to believing that his aggression is territorial and possibly protection based instead of quite so fear based. He's always advancing on what he's barking at with a forward, upright, and confident posture. I haven't gotten him into training yet because of continued financial reasons. 2010 should hopefully see us clear and I should be able to get him temp tested and into training to direct some of that aggression.

His posture and response definitely DO seem defensive. A defensive dog is an insecure or fearful dog. But a dog can be territorial as well as fearful. Don't mistake territorial for protective. He sounds more like he is defending his territory that protecting the pack members. And it is the pack leaders place to protect the pack members and say whether the pack needs to react threateningly. You are leaving it up to him, which adds stress and increases his insecurity and potential dangerousness.

There are three major ingredients that go into a dogs behavior. Innate temperament, socialization, and training. If any of the first two are lacking, the importance of the last become greater. Arguing over whether your dog acts defensively because of poor socialization or temperament won't change the behavior. Training can make up in part for a lack in either. So I would focus more on what you will do about his problem behavior instead of how it came to be.

Now if you really want to understand about socialization, here is some information. If you get a pup after 4 months of age, socialization is harder to accomplish as the initial socialization period is 3 wks to 16 wks. But with effort, you can overcome most of that lack if the dog has a solid temperament. You first said he was 3 months old when you got him. That is 4 wks before the socialization period is over. So if he had a solid temperament, you would not be seeing those behaviors if you spent the next 4 wks doing even minimal socializing. In fact most people wait until long enough after the puppies 2nd set of shots to begin socializing to the outside world. So 12 wks is just about average.

And if a dog with a solid temperament were abused or otherwise subjected to trauma; he would quickly shake it off when he was no longer being subjected to either.

Aggressive responses are not the sign of a dog with a solid temperament. They are the sign of a fearful or insecure dog. A dog with a solid temperament is confident and doesn't think the everything unusual is a threat.

 Quote: joy van veen

A confident dog who had not been taught a specific action, would alert to something or someone unusual; but would evaluate the situation before reacting aggressively. He would not assume a threat and try to immediately intimidate what might be harmful, or attack before being attacked.

Aggressive responses are not the sign of a dog with a solid temperament. They are the sign of a fearful or insecure dog. A dog with a solid temperament is confident and doesn't think the everything unusual is a threat.

Hmmmm....after temperament testing *thousands* of dogs for serious PPD work, I'd have to disagree with both of your statements there, Joy.
I don't think that you have either the training nor the knowledge base to be making statements like that, and you are attempting to pass on your "opinion" in a serious matter, when most serious trainers can see that you are talking beyond your experience base here.

Scott, feel free to shot me a PM if you need to discuss this further!

And since bad advice is being given here....I'm going to post my usual warning, which I post when we are discussing "protection" or "aggression", serious subjects with possibly bad outcomes:

To everyone that reads this:
There are many posters here of various expertise, ranging from pet owners to professional trainers.
The advice and opinions that you will be given here will range from factual knowledge from people that have trained for this exact subject, to raw beginners. There will often be advice given in tones of great authority from people that have no real knowledge of the subject.
Unfortunately, it is up you *you* to decide what advice to follow. This is a classic case of "Let the buyer beware".