Quote: betty landercasp

"Smart dogs get quilled once...never again"
I would disagree there. My experience is that many dogs seem to think,
"NEXT time I meet one of those I am going to REALLY murder it..." Some dogs were quilled over, and over and over again.
I think training to avoid them would be a great idea. Quills in eyelids, tongue - some were just gruesome.

Have to agree. There are lots of very smart dogs with alot of prey drive. Unfortunately, the pain of quills in the face must not override those drives.

 Quote: rob abel

Smart dogs get quilled once and never get near a porkie again. However some dogs are so prey driven that they will tangle with porkies more than once or tangle with one porkie so much that you have to take them to a vet to be sedated for quill removal.

{Sigh...} Well then, regretfully, I am one of the lucky ones who does not a smart dog have.

It boggles my mind why any dog would continue to attack something that continually inflicted so much pain/discomfort... but some of them just can't help themselves... Oscar got lucky and only had a run in with a "baby" porkie, so the quills we pulled out of his face were only between 1/2 - 1", but it's small size meant that he was able to pick up the little pincushion repeatedly, filling his mouth, tongue and gums with quills...

~Natalya

Thanks Rob, for asking on the web board for me. Starting with a road killed porkie is a great idea. That way, at least the dog will know the shock sensation means to stay back, rather than thinking the shock is coming from the porcupine and possibly attacking even more determinedly. It won't have the live smell and movement component, but it's a start. No luck yet with wildlife rehab centers, but I'll keep trying. I'm actually really surprised no-one in the area trains this, given the number of dogs I've known who have been quilled. Unlike a rattlesnake, its not usually deadly, but it can be very painful and costly. No worries about the phrasing earlier, I knew what you meant and I 100% agree that a few shocks (timed correctly) is nothing compared to getting quilled or bitten. Serious stuff, and I think I've done my homework now and am ready to get started. Not sure where I'll find the road kill. There are always a lot up in Maine, but that's quite a drive for an iffy result.
Thanks for all the input. When my last dog was quilled, there was no-way he was letting me anywhere near his mouth with pliers. I guess some dogs must submit to it, but I'm not sure that'll be the case with my current dogs. I suppose, as a side training, I could marker train that he should hold still and submit when I'm holding pliers, opening his mouth, etc. But with the adrenaline I've seen in quilled dogs, the training might not be super useful. And any level of proofing would be quite difficult.

I'm not sure if 'learning' from a porcupine quilling means a dog is smart or stupid. My last dog was very intelligent overall, but out of at least six porcupine encounters, 3 ended with a trip to the vet. My shepherd will stay just out of range of the porcupine, following behind it. I can imagine my younger dog would follow her lead, but end up quilled.
If I find a roadkill I'll be sure to post a video of the training. It's always useful to get input from experienced e-collar trainers about my timing, the dog's reaction,etc.
As a side note, if any of you are driving the roads around Boston and happen to see a prickly road kill, by all means send me a PM.

 Quote: kiersten lippman

Thanks Rob, for asking on the web board for me. Starting with a road killed porkie is a great idea. That way, at least the dog will know the shock sensation means to stay back, rather than thinking the shock is coming from the porcupine and possibly attacking even more determinedly. It won't have the live smell and movement component, but it's a start. No luck yet with wildlife rehab centers, but I'll keep trying. I'm actually really surprised no-one in the area trains this, given the number of dogs I've known who have been quilled. Unlike a rattlesnake, its not usually deadly, but it can be very painful and costly. No worries about the phrasing earlier, I knew what you meant and I 100% agree that a few shocks (timed correctly) is nothing compared to getting quilled or bitten. Serious stuff, and I think I've done my homework now and am ready to get started. Not sure where I'll find the road kill. There are always a lot up in Maine, but that's quite a drive for an iffy result.
Thanks for all the input. When my last dog was quilled, there was no-way he was letting me anywhere near his mouth with pliers. I guess some dogs must submit to it, but I'm not sure that'll be the case with my current dogs. I suppose, as a side training, I could marker train that he should hold still and submit when I'm holding pliers, opening his mouth, etc. But with the adrenaline I've seen in quilled dogs, the training might not be super useful. And any level of proofing would be quite difficult.

I'm not sure if 'learning' from a porcupine quilling means a dog is smart or stupid. My last dog was very intelligent overall, but out of at least six porcupine encounters, 3 ended with a trip to the vet. My shepherd will stay just out of range of the porcupine, following behind it. I can imagine my younger dog would follow her lead, but end up quilled.
If I find a roadkill I'll be sure to post a video of the training. It's always useful to get input from experienced e-collar trainers about my timing, the dog's reaction,etc.
As a side note, if any of you are driving the roads around Boston and happen to see a prickly road kill, by all means send me a PM.

So here's the idea, Kiersten: Put an ad in your local Craigslist...Wanted - Porcupines - Dead or Alive.

Once you get one, you can train your own dogs. If the porkie is dead, you can freeze it to preserve it for several training sessions. If you get a LIVE PORCUPINE - good luck, wear a helmet, goggles, pads everywhere, gloves....

I would think this would be a niche where a dog trainer could get some business. Sounds like there is definitely a need in the Northeast.

Oh, if all else fails and your dog gets quilled, here's a link to a "quill removal" article:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2132114_remove-porcupine-quills-dog.html

I had heard that snipping off the top of the quills helps you get them out a little easier.

Oh, and definitely your dogs should be trained to allow you (or a vet) to mess around their faces. It is awfully hard to predict a dogs reaction to the pain the quills cause. My experience with cactus spines is that the dog will wait patiently for them to be removed. It only takes an encounter or two to learn that the human can make the pain go away. I guess with the cactus, the dog gets enough repetitions that he can learn with each cactus encounter. With porcupines - yikes, I hope no-one has alot of reps!!

If any more info shows up on that bird dog board, I'll post it back here.

Have fun and keep getting your dogs in the out-of-doors! The positives of being out still far out weigh the risks, in my opinion.

I would contact whoever does roadkill scoop up for your county and simply ask if they can call you next time they have a roadkill porkie. Heck they might already have on in the freezer you can use if they don't compost them.

 Quote: Melissa Thom

I would contact whoever does roadkill scoop up for your county and simply ask if they can call you next time they have a roadkill porkie. Heck they might already have on in the freezer you can use if they don't compost them.

Great idea. Fresher = better. You want the thing smelling like porcupine, not decaying meat.

If trapping is legal in your area, the local trappers sometimes get porcupines. Then there is the high school kid with the .22 that lives in the woods...offer him $10...

Here's a website with bird dog breeders/trainers in Mass. Might not hurt to give a call or two - maybe some folks train porkie aversion, but just don't advertise much:

http://www.gundogbreeders.com/breeders-massachusetts/

Update: I've found some trails out in Western Mass with very reliable porcupine sightings (every morning and evening). Now, should I still try to start with a roadkill (I'll probably see one on the drive out there) or is it best to keep the dog on a short leash and stem him when he starts sniffing at porcupine sign/actual porcupine? Ideally, we'll catch a porcupine on the ground. Do I stem him as soon as he sees or smell the animal and until he ignores it?
My idea is: Enter porkie area. Dog on SHORT lead to avoid mishaps. Dog starts smelling the ground, excited. We see the porcupine. Dog strains at leash. STEM. Dog stops momentarilly, wondering where stem came from, then strains at leash again. STEM. Dog gets nervous. Sniffs the ground. Looks at porcupine. STEM. Dog backs off, we walk the woods, repeat as needed. Morning and evening for two days or until he retreats at the scent/sight of porcupine. I will use no commands. Is this correct? I'm a bit leery of stemming him for just sniffing scent in case the scent belongs to a deer or chipmunk etc.
Unlike obediance training, I'm told to use a very high level of STEM. I hate to do this, but it's probably the best, quickest way to go about aversion training.

I would check with people who beagle rabbits. They are masters of getting dogs to leave X critter alone while still pursuing other critters using e collars. I think I would still prefer to use roadkill over live creatures which are far less reliable.

Wow, you must have ALOT of porcupines in your area. I can certainly understand the need to get your dog trained off of them

If you know somebody who owns a .22, get them to go harvest one for you. I'd hate to see you or the dog get quilled in training...

If not, it's just going to be a little dicey keeping both of you safe yet making that your dog is full-on engaged with the sight and smell of the porcupine, because you are doing him no good with the STIM if he doesn't fully make the association that first time. If you can see it nearby, your dog smells it (his behavior tells you when he's getting excited). Agree, no commands. You are trying to teach the dog to use his independent judgement. I assume you want to eventually run him off-leash, and you want him to avoid the porcupines even in your absence.

The hunting dog trainers call this process "training off trash" or "trash breaking." The dogs will naturally chase all varieties of critters. Rabbit hunters don't want the dogs chasing deer. Bird hunters don't want the dogs chasing rabbits or deer. No one wants their dogs around snakes or porcupines, obviously...

After your initial training, you can proof your training in the same and different areas, again dog on leash and then maybe a longer line, always with the e-collar on. If he moves toward the porcupine again and if you see his prey drive kick in, repeat as you did earlier. On future encounters, the INSTANT he senses another porcupine yet steps away with you to continue your walk, give him copious rewards (the realllllly good stuff if he's food driven), then repeat each future encounter. He will get the idea. You are rewarding his decision to leave the porcupine and accompany you. You can cue him by walking away, but don't pull him with the leash/line. Let him make the decision.

From what I've heard, most dogs get this pretty easily, and don't require much future retraining. Others that are more driven have a harder time staying off, needing "reminders" each year for the first few years even. Lot's of birddog hunters keep the e-collar on throughout the first few hunting seasons in case a reminder needs to be given.

Good luck!

I thought of this post yesterday when I saw two porcupines in the road. We have many near us, the OP is not far from me, so the aversion training is a good idea.