Hey Jodi, good info in the background. I’m no expert but just a couple more thoughts based on what you’ve mentioned:

 Quote: Jodi Moen

when he got within a couple of feet of us Amber began screaming, and yelping like she'd been bitten,

High pitched whining (or maybe the screaming you’re talking about) often indicates a dog wants something – food, toys, out to go the bathroom or even off the leash to greet another dog. A very insistent pup that has got their way a few times may even add a bark to it, increasing the display, which is often confused with aggression – kind of a lunging, whiney-bark thing.

 Quote: Jodi Moen

when he came close to her she lunged and attempted to bite his lip.

the other dog approached Amber who was crying and barking and when the other dog got close Amber attempted to bite her lip as well.

another loose dog approached ……Amber and her new friend and Amber licked her, and appeared to recognize the other dog as alpha.

I hope it doesn’t sound like I’m questioning what you’re saying, as that’s certainly not the case, just trying to get a little clarification.

So have these attempts ever connected, are you sure she is trying to bite?

Face “licking” is a common form of communication with some dogs. A dog that greets another dog by “licking” their mouth (very common with wolves) is a submissive sign of respect, often seen in puppies that have been with their parents for an extended period of time. These pups may also have small scars (generally around the face though) from discipline they’ve receive from the adults they’ve been left with.

 Quote: Jodi Moen

People came rushing out thinking the poor dog had attacked the pup. I was able to get her away,

This kind of human reaction can intensify a pup’s anxiety, even create it where there may have only been an intense eagerness to play.

These dogs can be quite difficult to refocus when their only interest seems to be other dogs. It’s really important to watch for the body cues. The minute the ears go up or the slightest vocalization starts, I’d be turning around and heading the other direction. I know it’s probably happening very quickly but the less she’s able to practice this behavior, the less frequent it will become.

Starting with fun commands/obedience, near, but outside her reaction zone and slowly decreasing that distance (desensitizing) is a lot of work, but will get the results you’re looking for. If you have any questions about the process, please post them, there’s a lot of folks here that can help you out.

She sounds like a great pup. Oh and welcome.

Hi, to answer your questions.
In the case where the GSD approached us, she did not raise her hackles and was not as "intent" on getting towards him, truly seemed afraid of what would happen.

she has not actually bitten but I pull her away, she has gotten very close and her teeth do snap. I forgot to mention she loves to click her teeth, when she was attempting to chase cars on the leash, while i was making her stand she would bite at them, although we seem to have worked through this behavior.

I'm ok with the questions as hopefully it will help to figure her out she din't really show any of the traits she has shown with the other dog off leash that she does on leash. Perhaps I should describe her body landguage when she does this???
In the "aggressive" episodes, when she has sighted or sensed another dog she has raised her hackles (this can be from a couple hundred feet away and the dog can be minding its own business, seems to be triggered by the presence of the other dog not a stare or body language of the dog). Then she will progress to barking, (I honestly don't think i've heard her growl) then as I try to turn her or get out of sight she fight against me and often raise up on her hind legs and lunge at the other dog, because she turns sideways it is difficult to get her away because she tangles her legs with mine. at this point I have taken to holding her collar and pull her away, she'll often go up on her hind legs (I'm not holding her up, i swear) either to get a better view of the dog or better position herself. On the couple of occasions where we haven't had the option of retreat, I have gotten her as far away as possible off to the side, forced her to sit, and continued to make her sit until she was no longer reactive to the other dog but... she has become so frustrated that she'll throw a little temper tantrum and fight the sit until she knows she has no other choice, when she is calm I then praise her and continue.
I do try to watch for her "signs" and avoid the confrontation. I have noticed on most of these episodes that when the other dog is gone she will often whine in their direction like she wanted to be friendly.
sorry my info is kind of piece-mail, I'm trying to remember these encounters but as they happen so fast... To be honest I don't care if she has doggie friends or not, but our big problem is that i live in a very dog friendly community so we encounter dogs everywhere so avoiding them is not always an option and even if this behavior doesn't go away 100% it needs to be more controllable. I do have a couple of questions:
I have not talked to her during these episodes other than to say No, once or twice then not speaking until she is calm to praise her for sitting. should i talk to her at all during these episodes?
On a couple of occassions where we haven't been able to retreat, the person with the other dog has "meandered" in front of us, prolonging the encounter. I have done both making her sit facing the dog with me standing in front of her (because she is so dang hard to turn away) and I have also turned her away figuring maybe she'd be less reactive. On these occasions should I have her toward or away? Of course it would be so nice if the person with the other dog would just leave the area...
I have been considering putting a head collar on her, not to control her (we'd still use the leash) but to get control; of her head so she isn't tangling with my legs and enabling me to retreat quicker, easier. Does this sound reasonable?
Do you think this is fear aggression, aggression, or just a very strong play drive? I know with this type of forum that is very hard to answer.
On a good note I have started the marker training with her and she is very receptive to that. I really appreciate all the feedback, I'm really hopeful that she'll get over this. I apologize for the poor punctuation, I just got off work. Thanks again.

"Do you think this is fear aggression, aggression, or just a very strong play drive? I know with this type of forum that is very hard to answer."

Hard to answer, and in many ways pretty irrelevant. If you want what I want, you want the dog to be tolerant of but pretty much indifferent toward dogs who don't live in her home.

All of this comes from desensitizing. I could spend forever deciphering exactly what triggers my dog's reactions to other dogs, but in the long run, I don't much care. I want calm indifference, and the way I get it is through desensitizing work.

This starts with two major prongs: focus on you (as well as perception of you as not only all-powerful protector but also as the decider of behavior towards other beings), and bulletproof basic ob. When you have these in your home, you start to move it outdoors (or even to another room) to start proofing for venue changes. When you have these two at top level in some low- or no-distraction venues, you introduce controlled distraction while the dog focuses on you and your upbeat ob with awesome marker rewards. By "controlled," I mean controlled.

For example, a kid who stands and watches quietly is introduced into the scene. Then a friend with a neutral dog walks by at a distance that doesn't trigger your dog. The distance gradually lessens.

If no neutral dog is available, that's OK: you remove yourself and your dog to a distance from dogs under control (or behind a dog-park fence, for example {even greater distance with non-neutral dogs}) while the dog focuses on you and your upbeat marker ob with awesome rewards.

Have you had a chance to look at the link Barbara supplied? If not, here are the threads on desensitizing that are mentioned in that link:

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=251762&Searchpage=2&Main=24232&Words=connie%27s&topic=0&Search=true#Post251762

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=251709&Searchpage=1&Main=24232&Words=dummies&topic=0&Search=true#Post251710

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=253411&Searchpage=1&Main=24388&Words=desensitizing+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post253391

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=18&Number=256896&Searchpage=1&Main=24726&Words=desensitizing+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post256896

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=251762&Searchpage=2&Main=24232&Words=connie%27s&topic=0&Search=true#Post251762

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=251701&Searchpage=1&Main=24232&Words=desensitizing+Connie+Sutherland&topic=0&Search=true#Post251701

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/251762/page/0/fpart/1

It's a good process. There is no downside to it. It has many benefits besides the obvious one of dialing back the dog's reactivity.


eta

This is not to blow my horn --- the process is not MY process; it's more like THE desensitizing process (IMO) --- but this quote from that first link will be heartening:

"In addition to being somewhat traumatized, I was embarrassed by my dog's behavior. I have a fair amount of experience, this dog was bred by me, and still here I was dealing with a behavior I had never seen before in one of my dogs. I bought "Control Unleashed", "Click to Calm", "In Focus", etc. looking for a magic formula, but it really is as simple as laid out by Connie. My dog's reactivity was so extreme at times I felt like it would never change, but it did. It just takes a lot of time, consistency and patience.

The simple techniques Connie shared worked wonders on my dog. There were weeks that it felt like I made no progress at all, but when I look at where we were, and at how pleasant my dog is now, all the time was worth it. The basic premise of building tolerance to distractions is a great way to go, and can carry over into any behaviour you'd like to teach your dog. It doesn't need to be complicated at all, it just takes time."

Edited by Connie Sutherland (01/19/2011 02:20 PM)
Edit reason: eta

I really appreciate this thread because I am working with Jethro everyday on similar issues. Here is what I am finding is helping:
1. He pretty much lives in his crate except when he is with me or my husband. He has no free time outside the crate, he is always following us or our instructions whenever he is out of the crate.
2. 3 - 4 30-45 min. walks everyday to drain his energy. We vary the content of the walks (all on-leash): walk 1 - structured heel, a little sniff time; walk 2 - sniff time with lots of recall practice as we are walking along (12 ft. leash); walk 3 - desensitizing on the soccer field, learning to play and have a good time without getting into everyone else's business, playing tug and fetch, continuing to build recall and Halt, Watch, Wait; walk 4 - patrolling the neighbourhood late at night, building This Way no matter what the distraction.
3. Building This Way into every activity (in the house, at the door, on the porch, down the steps, onto the sidewalk): we are practicing this by using This Way to disrupt Jethro's expectation of what direction we are going. When he turns This Way (ie. to go back up the stairs when he thought we were heading down the sidewalk) he gets a Yes, treat, and we do another This Way to get headed out onto the sidewalk again. This way, instead of him scanning the street for possible distractions, he is focused on me, and trying to go the same direction I am.
4. Working on Halt (drop your butt to the ground right now no matter what you were doing) at every opportunity, especially during sniff time. He is actually starting to Halt at the curb, on the field, and on the sidewalk when a dog distraction is present and his hackles are up.
5. Zero tolerance for window barking - trying to catch him before he vocalizes and move him to the kitchen under the table where he is rewarded for lying down on his blanket under the table with a delectable treat (where he can't see or hear things from the street).
6. Working on Settle (Sit, Down, Chin resting on the floor) as a way to both drain mental energy - (Settle your chin here, now Settle here, now Settle here, Sit, Down, Sit, Down, Settle) etc. marker training; and as a way to shift his gears from high drive to low drive.

It has been helpful to interpret Jethro's reactive state as high high drive rather than aggression or disrespect. I am continuously looking for activities and lures that can shift his focus, working to catch it earlier, or, when I am too late, learning to deflect or detour. One technique I use when I am in a pinch is to swing Jethro around so he isn't facing his distraction and at the same time swing my leg over his back so he is between my legs. I have his head held nice and high, so he can't redirect his frustration at me, and I use my weight to sink his hind end into a sit. I can actually hold him quite comfortably this way, until he settles down. He can't see his distraction, and once he realizes I am on top of him - not pinning, but containing, saying Enough, and Shhhh he eases up. This is my last resort maneuver, when I have been caught off guard and he is making an ass of himself. As soon as possible I say a cheery, This Way! and lead him off away from the site of discontent.

One maneuver that was recommended to me but has been disastrous is lifting Jethro so his feet clear the ground and then try to swing him away. Sure I get the control, but he gets freaked out and it seems to make him worse.

I'm finding playing with him: tug, fetch, soccer, flying squirrel - these activities really cut down on the incidents of berserko on leash behaviour. Also, we get Jethro out where he can really cut loose - up in the woods or out by the river or by the lake - when he can run at his top speed until he can't run anymore and come back to us for check ins, this is really building our confidence and our bonds.

I'm really interested in the desentisizing process. I think this is a really smart way to help our dogs fit into the life we live.

Hi Connie, Yes I've read about halfway through the threads and am starting on articles and am still reading. The desensitizing process is what I used with the my last dog but his reactive zone was a lot smaller, so it was easier to find places where he could be around dogs without being triggered, and the first time he was able to approach a dog and sniff without fear, anxiety, or aggression was a joy. so yup, I totally agree this is the best method to use with Amber BUT... because her zone is so large I have to find an area that will encompass us. And while I am working on this with her she still needs to be walked...unfortunatly my yard will not work for this type of distraction, other dogs, people etc. While we are on our walks someone did give me a suggestion on how best to retreat when we are on our walks and we did come across a dog who was hidden around a corner, I used this technique as soon as Amber reacted and she barked twice but that was it , I didn't have to deal with her fighting me or lunging and she basically voluntarily left the other dog. I think this method for retreating when we have to in addition to the marker and desensitizing training is going to work wonders. the advice is great and most certaintly have given me some focus on how to deal with her. Jodi

Hi, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with this issue. I don't crate with Amber, she has free access through the house, is very well behaved and thankfully any window aggression or barking at dogs from next door has been trained out, her issue specifically seems to be the leash issue.
I have never lifted her off the ground, she will go up on her hind legs on her own, I've even seen her go on her hind legs to watch a squirrel in a tree (I think she probably should have been named Roo) because her body is so long when she is stretched out she tangles a leg with me, so I wouldn't be able to turn her if I wanted. I have actually stood over her and locked her hips with my knees to prevent her going forward, using this method but teaching the command "Stand!" is what broke her of attemting to chase cars, I've used it a couple with other dogs, but she is much more intent on them. I think the new method we were given for retreating on walks is probably the one I'm going to use as it seemed to work beautifully last night.
I'm also of the tired dog is a happy dog philosphy.

Hey Jodi, you did a great job at answering my questions, let me see if I can’t shed a little light on yours.

 Quote: jodi moen

I have not talked to her during these episodes other than to say No, once or twice then not speaking until she is calm to praise her for sitting. should i talk to her at all during these episodes?

The word “talk” is subjective. I would not be engaging in dialogue such as: “Amber, its okay, don’t do that, oh come on-you don’t need to behave that way” etc, etc.; however, communication is critical during this time.

Talking and actually communicating are two very different things. We are communicating to our dogs constantly – ignoring them is a form of communication.

A firm “No” (if she knows the word) to show your displeasure in her immediate actions and then a redirection (possible verbal command that she knows) to an appropriate behavior. A lure/reward for a calm sit or a reward for turning around quickly, focusing on you and nicely heading the other direction. Once performing the appropriate behavior, show your approval, praise – Yes, good girl or whatever your happy word is.

When she’s behaving this way, you need to regain her focus – loud, verbal “noises” may get that for you initially but you need to keep them simple and uncomplicated. Immediately, once she’s focused on you, your demeanor must change (upbeat, engaged, exciting) and she needs to be rewarded. Timing is critical.

 Quote: jodi moen

On a couple of occassions where we haven't been able to retreat, the person with the other dog has "meandered" in front of us, prolonging the encounter. I have done both making her sit facing the dog with me standing in front of her (because she is so dang hard to turn away) and I have also turned her away figuring maybe she'd be less reactive. On these occasions should I have her toward or away? Of course it would be so nice if the person with the other dog would just leave the area...

People and other dogs are a reality. Wishing they would leave is only displacing our responsibility to control our animals in public. Believe me, I hear what you’re saying and if only there was a magic wand to fix stupid….but there’s not. We must be the ones to make the smart decisions that are going to be the most beneficial to us, regardless of how anti-social they may appear.

You need to avoid this “meandering’ at all costs right now. Asking her sit in these highly reactive situations is not doing her any favors. You’re setting her and yourself up for failure (she’s hard for you to control right now, she has an opportunity to practice the unwanted behavior, etc, etc… all not good).

Specifically:

 Quote: jodi moen

I have also turned her away figuring maybe she'd be less reactive.

How’s that working for you? Not too well yet, I would think. Desensitizing work is keeping them outside of their reaction zone. You, as her leader/protector, need to make choices to ensure that happens.

 Quote: jodi moen

I have been considering putting a head collar on her, not to control her (we'd still use the leash) but to get control; of her head so she isn't tangling with my legs and enabling me to retreat quicker, easier. Does this sound reasonable?

I have never used head collars on a dog; don’t know the first thing about them. Perhaps others have some information for you here. Too me, halters are for horses. They have the head for it attached to a long, directional neck. Dog don’t have that long neck (well except for Tracy R’s stunningly gorgeous example). To me, there’s too much room for injury (neck twisting) should they get into a heightened state of anxiety and corrections increase. JMHO of course.

 Quote: jodi moen

Do you think this is fear aggression, aggression, or just a very strong play drive? I know with this type of forum that is very hard to answer.

As Connie pointed out, it’s really hard to tell at this point and really doesn’t much matter. You have an unwanted behavior that needs to be stopped. Personally, I don’t think its fear. Reactive, uncertainty, yes. Could easily turn into fear, based on her temperament and the number of physical corrections she receives during these times.

I think she’s been placed in situations with other dogs more than she had an opportunity to bond with humans. She understands the fun, excitement of other dogs (good, bad or otherwise) and is displaying an exaggerated anxious behavior, in anticipation of the excitement to come.

She needs time with you, not doggy friends. Contrary to an often misguided belief, most dogs don’t need and often don’t want dog friends. We put them in those situations and they have no choice. If we haven’t taught them the proper way to react around other dogs, they’re going to learn the hard way and develop bad habit.

Sorry, late, quick, long-winded response, it's a crazy week here. But, again, this all just my opinion, I am no expert.

On a side note, tt sounds like you’re doing a great job with her at home, simply needs to be extended to your control on the leash. A lot of work and easier said than done, but totally doable.

 Quote: barbara schuler

The day care you were thinking about may be the best place on earth for aggression issues, but there are hundreds upon hundreds of posts on this forum which talk about professional trainers who don't have a clue on how to really handle this issue. That's why I'm a bit hesitant about them for dogs with any dog-related issues. JMHO.

Barb & Connie,

Just a quick question. I actually had this discussion with my personal trainer yesterday. He has a pit mix dog - now about 3 1/2. He took it in when the owner had to move and couldn't find a home for it. From what he told me he has taken him to obedience and said he did extremely well, but he, too, has a dog agression issue. Evidently instead of adressing this issue they just kept the dog completely separated from the rest of the group (which I agree was probably the safest way to handle the situation if they didn't know how to handle it).

After the obedience he had a "very reputable" trainer offer to help with this issue. Evidently her idea was to provoke the dog into an agressive state (by staring at it from what he said) while in his home (where he has no problem) and then correct the dog. I believe, fortunately, that she couldn't ilicit this behavior from the dog and then gave up.

I told him that I really thought this was NOT a good way to correct this behavior. It seemed very wrong to try and provoke the dog into agression and then correct it (I can only imagine how this trainer's correction might have been).

He seems to have decided that it's not worth trying to find someone to help solve this problem. I did reiterate to him that there are very good trainers that could help him correct this problem in a positive way and strongly recommended he look into this instead of just saying "oh well, that's just the way he is". I didn't think that was fair to the dog.

Just curious if my gut instinct to how this was being handled was incorrect.

Thanks!

Edited by Dana Martin (01/21/2011 09:46 AM)
Edit reason: oops!

When we adopted Jethro at 4 months we were instructed to give him lots of varied experiences to socialize. Now we are very careful about his socialization, ensuring he isn't exposed to situations he can't handle (as much as we can). Should we just avoid socializing altogether for now? Because he is partially habituated to these leash reactions? I avoid all on leash socializing now - I cross the street, etc. And he doesn't react 100% of the time, he has improved a lot. But there is still... it is a rare walk that goes 100% reaction free (although they do happen!).

 Quote: jenny arntzen

When we adopted Jethro at 4 months we were instructed to give him lots of varied experiences to socialize. Now we are very careful about his socialization, ensuring he isn't exposed to situations he can't handle (as much as we can). Should we just avoid socializing altogether for now? Because he is partially habituated to these leash reactions? I avoid all on leash socializing now - I cross the street, etc. And he doesn't react 100% of the time, he has improved a lot. But there is still... it is a rare walk that goes 100% reaction free (although they do happen!).

I missed some posts, but am I seeing a hijack?

Jenny, here is what I call "socialized" : tolerant of and pretty much indifferent to anything that might happen around the dog that might cause another dog to react with anxiety, fear, aggression, etc. Given that definition, which you will find is a very common one, what is "on-leash socializing"? It sounds kinda like it means forcing a reactive dog to meet-n-greet up close, on leash. Not something I would do. " .... lots of varied experiences .... " : YES. But if the dog is reactive, then go back and read even just this thread and see how the triggers for this dog are experienced at a non-trigger distance at first.

OTOH, if my dog was socialized (in my definition), as they are, then having them beside me as I talk to another owner whose dog is similarly calm is fine with me.

That is, socializing for me has zero to do with my dog having to interact with strange dogs. And when my dog is "socialized" (non-reactive), then maybe I will consider another leashed dog to be appropriate for us to be near. (And maybe not. Is the other dog uncontrolled, leaping and pulling and barking? Then no.)

Not sure if I really answered your question, but if I didn't, can we start a new thread? We're hijacking Jodi's a bit, I think. Dana, if you would start a new thread, too, that'd be good. THANK YOU BOTH!