I agree with Chuck on this. The dog should be muzzled and I think that this dog, in this situation from the information posted, is a loaded gun waiting for a child to play with it.
Maybe Lou could e-collar this dog into being a good citzen, but I do not think that these people have the skill or knowledge to deal with it. This dog should have its envoirment changed, or be put to sleep. E-collars, kicking, pushing, or pronging are not going to change the fact that this dog is in a bad situation. Having these people use the e-collar will more likley then not end up in someone getting injured. The e-collar could provoke an attack, just as the prong could and I do not feel that they can deal with this.
At the very least the dog should be muzzled until the issue can be resolved.

There are a lot of good opinions on how to correct this in this thread. After rereading my post i would like to clarify a little. I have been put in this position 4 or 5 times with pits (i have raised at least 50) and have sucessfully curbed this behavior. Now I know I will not be popular for saying this but I will anyway. A pit is a totally different animal than most dog breeds. When they challenge me I confront them head on right on the spot no muzzle or anything. I will correct them and make them back down by any means necessary. You will have to show them that you are just a bit more determined and crazier than them and if they dont quit they may very well lose their life <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> at least thats what you want them to think in their mind. Like I said though this is a pup stop this behavior now. You dont want to try this say at 16 months old. I have personally tried it at 24 months with a dog someone else gave me because of this behavior and I couldnt win this one. Or lets say I didnt have the balls. LOL The post about using a muzzle is great though I have never tryed it. I would muzzle him and try to duplicate the foul behavior. When he does correct him and when he gets rowdy bust his you know what until he quits. He can be trained I have faith in Pits just takes a lot of balls and a 20 correction and a 1-10 scale. The reason I take this approach on Pits is they bite hard and have a bad enough rep so I squash aggressive behavior at all cost they must know it is unacceptable.

Michael Taylor: Maybe Lou could e-collar this dog into being a good citzen, but I do not think that these people have the skill or knowledge to deal with it. This dog should have its envoirment changed, or be put to sleep. E-collars, kicking, pushing, or pronging are not going to change the fact that this dog is in a bad situation. Having these people use the e-collar will more likley then not end up in someone getting injured. The e-collar could provoke an attack, just as the prong could and I do not feel that they can deal with this.

LC: Didja read in the post with the quotes from Larry Tillack that Larry had little experience with the Ecollar? Didja read that we spoke on the phone and I talked him through the procedure for teaching the recall for he dog. Be careful or I’ll post a buncha more such success stories. I’ve got them in my files and I’m not afraid to use them. Over on the SAR Dogs list someone just challenged my phone instruction method of teaching. There was a deluge of support from people that I’ve done it with and who have had success at it.

LC: As far as the Ecollar “provok(ing) an attack” that’s another myth. That only happens with high stimulation level use, not low stimulation level use.

LC: I’d really hesitate to recommend putting a dog to sleep based on an Internet conversation. Long before that I’d recommend several consultations with local trainers.

Shane Seaux wrote: Now I know I will not be popular for saying this but I will anyway. A pit is a totally different animal than most dog breeds.

LC: I don’t think that any dog breed is “totally different” than any other. They all came from a common ancestor or at least a couple of common ancestors. As such they all have the same drives, thoughts and behavior. The only difference is of degree and balance.

Shane Seaux wrote: When they challenge me I confront them head on right on the spot no muzzle or anything. I will correct them and make them back down by any means necessary. You will have to show them that you are just a bit more determined and crazier than them and if they dont quit they may very well lose their life at least thats what you want them to think in their mind.

LC: I’ve heard this sort of advice with many breeds over the years and I think it’s almost always the wrong thing to do. Doing this just sets the stage for either the dog hospitalizing you or worse. If not today, than at some later time. This mentality is one thing that’s responsible for dogs biting their handlers in the sports, in protection dogs, in pets and everywhere else that people and dogs interact. I’m quite proud to say that I’ve never gotten a handler bitten during training.

LC: Dogs in the wild rarely do this sort of all-out attack on one another. They communicate with subtle body signals and I think that if we do the same, we’re better off.

Shane Seaux wrote: The reason I take this approach on Pits is they bite hard and have a bad enough rep so I squash aggressive behavior at all cost they must know it is unacceptable.

LC: This sounds to me like the perfect reason NOT to try to meet the confrontation head on. Even if you win this one fight, there will probably more to come. And since you’ve determined how the fight will be conducted, you’re in danger all the time. If you approach it from the standpoint of avoiding the fight, and stick with body language, that’s what you’ll get back. Shane this method may work as long as you’re young and strong, but sometime in your life you’ll be too old and weak to win. I’d suggest that before that happens, you brains instead of brawn to get the upper hand with any dog.

Lou, That is not true. I have seen dogs get nasty on level three with the tri-tronics. They did not really respond to anything lower. So a myth......lets count the stiches and tell some more stories.
Looking at the facts, I still do not recommend it. I know you are a pro e-collar trainer, and if you were near this dog, maybe you could help, I am sure you could do something good for them at some level. But that is not the case.

 Quote:

Originally posted by Lou Castle:
Even if you win this one fight, there will probably more to come. And since you’ve determined how the fight will be conducted, you’re in danger all the time. If you approach it from the standpoint of avoiding the fight, and stick with body language, that’s what you’ll get back. Shane this method may work as long as you’re young and strong, but sometime in your life you’ll be too old and weak to win. I’d suggest that before that happens, you brains instead of brawn to get the upper hand with any dog.

It is so refreshing to see someone saying this. I think that the "correct the snot out of them" strategy for dealing with aggression is offered waaaayyy too frequently. I've seen Lou work, and though I'm not an ecollar convert, I do understand what he's getting at here. I don't think the ecollar is the only way to go, but I definitely do not think that pronging the crap out of the dog will help in a situation like this.

But, I'm speaking theoretically, not from experience, so I realize that my opinion means squat.

Well here I go getting in the thick of it again..first off...

I'm sooo sick of the "Pit" "AmStaff" "Am Bull" "Tosa" "WHATEVER" are different than any other dog.....Yes each breed has it's quirks and must be handled and worked differently, but it's still a dog. And yes..I owned a AmStaff for 9 years..so please don't tell me I have no idea what they are about...and lets not start "it's not a Pit" crap either...

I have no problem with being hard on a dog, if it is required and is fair. It also will depend on the dog. I also agree that in most cases force only gets force. You might repress the behavior for a while, but IMO many times when the dog finally reverts back, they come out harder as they have learned it will require more force to overcome the same situation.

If the dog can not be managed, why keep it? Wasting time and effort on a dog who wants to kill the world has NO place in reality. For all the good intentions, there is a better dog out there in need of a good home/rescue to waste on one that is sooo F^%$^# up. If the goal is to adopt this dog out, who are you helping?? The dog?? What about the new owners who are not "trainers" and the dog goes back to it's original behavior as time goes on? What if the dog was to get loose and bite YOUR child, wife, friend, mom, whatever... I know what my answer would be...you wouldn't have to call Animal Control that's for sure. So who are you helping by trying to "fix" such a dog? If we can put people to death for being sick %#% that can not live in our society, why should we have a sick dog around? I don't even think most dogs like this are "happy" in their own twisted little world. Perhaps the most humane thing to do is put the dog down before it hurts someone. Putting on my flame proof suit as I type..LOL

Michael Taylor wrote: Lou, That is not true. I have seen dogs get nasty on level three with the tri-tronics. They did not really respond to anything lower. So a myth......lets count the stiches and tell some more stories.

LC: Michael I’m not sure what I did to earn this attitude but I’m big enough to take it. What is it that you're referring to that's "not true?"

I’ve seen the same thing with the TriTronics units and that’s why I’m using Dogtra Ecollars now. With the dog you described a three was to high and a two was too low. That doesn’t happen with them because there are far more levels to choose from. You want some more stories, I gottem.

LC: Here’s one from someone in Colorado with a dog that reacted to every noise stimulus with a fight or flight response. Jen Mackler wrote:

***** Roma is a fear driven dog (unknown history - was a stray, VERY head shy and submissive with people). We have mostly conquered the head-shyness with strangers through positive reinforcement with clickers and treats. I feel I have built her confidence as much as I can at this point (I have had her almost two years). Her major problem as I see it now is too much prey/protection drive. Within our yard/house she is WAY confident. She has lunged at and tried to bite (got a pantleg!) one person who came to the door. She puts on HUGE displays of aggression at squirrels, dogs, and people who walk within 10 yards of our house (this includes lunging, stomping, full hackles, growling/snarling, "kill-shaking" toys or *anything* that is nearby). I'm concerned that these aggressive displays will turn into an attack if she accidentally gets out or off leash. She did attack my other dog over a toy a year ago, after which she went into daycare once a week and became better socialized with other dogs . . . It's just that the sight of another dog (from the house or a leash) causes a complete snarling, lunging meltdown to where she has occassionally bitten MY leg because it was the closest thing she could get her mouth on.

***** I worked with Lou Castle last weekend . . . My only previous experience with Ecollars was several years ago when I purchased a CHEAP one with three stim levels that I used on my SAR dog for proofing her recall. On the lowest stim level used on my hand, I had to drop the collar it was so uncomfortable -- kind of like touching an electric cattle fence. At the time I felt that this "cruelty" was necessary to prevent my SAR dog from potential injury or death from not having a reliable recall. In that situation, in two short sessions, it worked, and I have never had a problem with her recall since.

***** I have tried everything with this dog -- standard obedience classes, prong collars, Halti/Gentle Leaders, clicker training, Tellington Touch, and even herbal sedatives. While her basic obedience around the house improved significantly with these methods, nothing really addressed her fear based aggression around strangers, cars or other dogs. I've been working with Lou's collar now for only a few days and the changes he has described are all true.

***** I should also say that in addition to being a SAR dog handler in my free time, I'm a veterinary student and am simultaneously working on a PhD. in Neurobiology. If I were AT ALL concerned about negative neurological or behavioral consequences of Lou's methods, or his Ecollars, I would not use it on my own dog.

LC: A short time later Jen sent this post.

***** Roma is doing spectacularly . . . She was VERY friendly to a "stranger" who came to the door at home while she was wearing her ecollar. James called her back from the door with her "here" command, I let the person in, Roma was released, greeted her in a very friendly manner - no growling or snapping, she sniffed, then the person said her name and Roma sat in front of her, looked right up at her and let her pet her head. Remarkable. She seems to completely forget about being aggressive when she's wearing the collar.

LC: And later still she wrote this.

***** Hi Lou. Roma is doing SUPER. I've taken her to the dog park for the last two weekends and she was under superb control the whole time. I had to stop bringing her a year ago when she began the dog aggression-losing her mind barking-growling thing. Now, with Mr. ecollar, she is an angel. People were oohing and ahhing at her obedience and she had a great time - let people pet her and everything. So, Roma has a new life!

Michael Taylor wrote: Looking at the facts, I still do not recommend it. I know you are a pro e-collar trainer, and if you were near this dog, maybe you could help, I am sure you could do something good for them at some level. But that is not the case.

LC: Michael I’ve talked quite a few people through the necessary training on the phone. I have no doubt that with your attitude that you couldn't do anything with this dog, but I also have no doubt that I could.

L Swanston wrote: It is so refreshing to see someone saying this. I think that the "correct the snot out of them" strategy for dealing with aggression is offered waaaayyy too frequently. I've seen Lou work, and though I'm not an ecollar convert, I do understand what he's getting at here. I don't think the ecollar is the only way to go, but I definitely do not think that pronging the crap out of the dog will help in a situation like this.

LC: It’s not just the humanitarian in me. I’m not fond of leaking my blood all over the countryside so I’ve found others ways to get to the same place.

To the nay sayers I see all of your points. I am by far not a proffesional trainer. I am just giving advise on what I have done in this situation and it did work. I can not comment if your way works or not I have not tried it. Maybe next time. All I am saying is there is more than 1 way to skin a cat.(Pun intended)The other issue is I see you guys working more on getting dogs to do something you want it to. In this situation the object is to teach it to never do it again.

Lou,

You are absolutely correct in the effectiveness of an ecoller in this situation. A
few years back a friend of mine had an Amstaff that was truly the most aggressive
dog I've seen--extreme dog aggression etc. He tried group obedience classes and
was told by the instructor not to come back, "the dog was too dangerous". At that
time I suggested he try an ecoller. Within one year, with the use of an ecoller, he
molded this dog into a superb companion animal that later went on to be a champion
in the breed ring. BTW, he was able to do this primarily on he own, with some
advice. He had a vision of what he wanted this dog to be, and had the patients an
and determination to do it--I think it's that simple.

John

Lou, it's not entirely the humanitarian in me, either (though I will admit that is part of it), but it just seems like common sense, from everything I have read and observed, that pronging a dog who is in full blown agro mode will either be ineffective at best, or serve to whip the dog into further frenzy at worst. It surprises me to see so many knowledgeable dog folks recommending that as a solution to an aggression problem of this magnitude. While a prong correction may be effective in the very beginning stages, especially in a young dog who is simply testing boundaries, it just does not affect a dog in full-blown agro the same way.

On the idea of bribery, well, I would be a fool to not see that bribery as a way of life will only do harm to the dog/handler bond. However, I think that a little bribery in certain situations can go a long way, and will help more than it hurts.

I often read these ideas and think that it's another example of imposing human morality upon the dog, as if the dog is capable of reasoning, especially at a moment when he, or she, in this case, is in such a state of excitement that she is simply not capable of responding to the handler. I agree that this problem was probably created by the owner(s) mismanagement of the dog, and at such a young age, too! It's a shame. The humans in the equation need some serious behavior modification if ANY behavior modification on the dog is going to stick. Euthanizing such a dog would only be a short term solution, if the people are allowed to get another one, thinking that this dog was somehow defective. It's likely that, unless they truly realize their own mistakes, they will only repeat them.