Quote: Sheila Buckley

I don't understand how someone lets the bad behavior continue while they figure out how to curtail it. Training requires a plan and needs to be thought out. Management is immediate and alleviates the problem while you figure it out.

This is such a gem, I felt compelled to repeat it. I was trying to noodle a response to Will's post about identifying whether a problem is a training or management issue. The two often go hand in hand. Thankfully, you eloquently hit the nail on the head, more concisely than I would have.

Tracy

 Quote: tracyroche

 Quote: sheila buckley

I don't understand how someone lets the bad behavior continue while they figure out how to curtail it. Training requires a plan and needs to be thought out. Management is immediate and alleviates the problem while you figure it out.

This is such a gem, I felt compelled to repeat it. I was trying to noodle a response to Will's post about identifying whether a problem is a training or management issue. The two often go hand in hand. Thankfully, you eloquently hit the nail on the head, more concisely than I would have.

And me one more time. So often a situation is allowed, ignored, over analyzied, punished, etc... which only allows the behavior to reinforce itself, when simply controlling or "managing" the behavior - literally just preventing the situation from being able to occur is HUGE in beginning to find a solution.

Shelia, you are right - is seems like common sense to simply not let the dog chase the kids and the kids don't run with the dog, yet too many posts prove that common sense is not often the initial response, is it?

 Quote: barbara schuler

And me one more time. So often a situation is allowed, ignored, over analyzied, punished, etc... which only allows the behavior to reinforce itself, when simply controlling or "managing" the behavior - literally just preventing the situation from being able to occur is HUGE in beginning to find a solution.

YES!!!

I was a novice when it came to dog behavior/body language, etc when I got Missy. Who came with some major fear issues. Yet I was able integrated a dog who had been used to 2 adults into a household with 8 people including kids. Not something I'd recommend looking back on it, but it worked and it was mostly common sense.

Give her a crate/corner of her own. Don't force her interact with people, let her figure things out at her pace. Praise her when things go good. Manage/prevent things from going bad. Encourage play with toys. Discourage nipping.

The first time she went up and nipped a little brother, we knew why. And it wasn't because she had turned and was now unsafe around kids. He was being loud and goofy and it had triggered her drive. So he learned to be calm around the dog and I upped the management. When we were outside and kids were running and playing I gave her a ball to play with and she left kids alone except for dropping the ball at their feet to throw it

It all worked.

 Quote: mara jessup

 Quote: betty landercasp

People don't have much patience IME once their children are bitten.

That is very true....

If we got nipped by a dog, the first question would have been "what were you doing to the dog?"

Serious aggression would have never been tolerated...

This is very reminiscent of how I was brought up too. Unfortunately, farm life or not, one of my uncles had no tolerance for an incident that was entirely my fault. He asked no questions and showed no mercy.

I was six and we were visiting. I was told not to go down to the barn (where a dog was chained to a dog house). Repeatedly told (on each occasion) not to go near the dog. He was a big, beautiful white fluffy dog and I really liked dogs, back as far as I can remember.

Well yes, this time I went wandering down towards the barn and watched this dog from a distance for a long time. I was mesmerized by him and slowly made my way up to him. When he finally stopped his low growl, I stuck my arm out to pet him. He latched on tight but let go right away. Scared the crap out of me and I went screaming back to the house. My arm swelled up pretty good and the teeth left their mark but he never broke the skin.

I think I cried so hard because I was afraid I was in trouble for going near the barn. When I explained what happened my uncle left the house and a few minutes later I heard the rifle shot. That bang still rings in my head. He came back and simply said, “That dog will never bite anyone again.” Nothing more was ever said.

To this day I have vowed that no dog will ever, again, lose his life because of a mistake I make. In fact, as a child I would not go up to strange dogs, not for fear of them, it was fear for them. No one cared that I made the mistake, everyone felt sorry for me and no one spoke about the dog that had lost his life.

Looking back, this dog’s life, chained to his house out by an old barn must have been a horrible existence. His beautiful white face is burned in my memory and I like to think he didn’t die in vain. I have since studied dogs intensely and struggled really hard to figure out what triggers aggression.

This was a tough lesson to learn as a child and I will do anything in my power to see that another child doesn’t make the same mistake I did. I don’t know what the answer is and it’s a hard call sometimes, when we live in a society where a dog’s life can be so expendable.

At this age, I did not know that this dog would lose his life if he bit me. I do know that I am always brutally honest with kids about the potential consequences of their actions. They can get hurt really badly or a dog may have to die if they don’t listen to what the adults or the dog is saying.

As terrible as my example is, was training an option? With this particular uncle as an owner, I don’t believe it was but it would seem that the dog management issue was in place. Child supervision/management was not.

You didn't cause that tragedy.

This was the root:

" ... this dog’s life, chained to his house out by an old barn must have been a horrible existence ... "

This is not how a pack animal can live and be "normal."

Not only do many dogs tethered outside continuously become neurotic and aggressive -- they are also pretty much staked-out bait, helpless against attack by other predators and by humans.

 Quote: barbara schuler

 Quote: will rambeau

The first step that I always take with this kind of situation is to ask:
"Is this a training problem, or a management problem?" -answering that in itself is a big first step.

This makes perfect sense and I'd trust you to make that determination in a nano-second... I'm just not sure how many of the average pet owners could make an honest assessment this requires... All too often we see folks go about management issues as if they bought a defective dog... not that they are mismanaging or not training correctly.

Question: How would a novice trainer determine "It might be a training issue if xxxxxxxxxxxx is happening" and "It might be a management issue if xxxxxxxxxxxxxx"?

Here's my take on it:
If a problem can be corrected by the owner/handler making a change in the dog's environment or in the actual handling of the dog, it's a management problem ( a change primarily in the owner ).

If the problem can only be changed by changing/shaping/correcting a behavior in the dog, it's a training issue.

For example - take the problem "My dog runs out the door when I open it."
To manage the problem, you put the dog into a crate before you go out the door - the problem is "managed" and dealt with.

If you train the dog to go into a down/stay and remain there while you go through the door - the problem was corrected by "training."

See the difference?

 Quote: will rambeau

Here's my take on it:
If a problem can be corrected by the owner/handler making a change in the dog's environment or in the actual handling of the dog, it's a management problem ( a change primarily in the owner ).

If the problem can only be changed by changing/shaping/correcting a behavior in the dog, it's a training issue.

For example - take the problem "My dog runs out the door when I open it."
To manage the problem, you put the dog into a crate before you go out the door - the problem is "managed" and dealt with.

If you train the dog to go into a down/stay and remain there while you go through the door - the problem was corrected by "training."

See the difference?

Yes. I guess if it was easy for the average dog owner to determine which approach should be taken in any given situation, we wouldn't need the LB forum, would we?

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

I guess if it was easy for the average dog owner to determine which approach should be taken in any given situation, we wouldn't need the LB forum, would we?

Something tells me that even if we did have the answers and could determine the approach, we’d still need the LB forum.

I know I sure would!