another note, if you're dog is already in that "red zone" and you are correcting her it's too late for the correction.
Chances are you will only amp her up when you correct her while she's in the "zone" and she's not even listening when you are saying no.

You're dog doesn't know what you expect of her and until she does it's no use correcting her for "acting stupid". which she's not, she's acting fearful and you correcting her for that is not fair.

she will learn what you expect when you get her in her comfort zone and she listens to you and isn't acting up. Thats when you praise. She will learn OVER TIME that hey, when im quiet and don't freak out im praised. When i had Tucker in his comfort zone and he wasn't reacting I would allow him to look towards the other dog. If he didn't react (no hackles, growling etc) and he gave me quiet calm behaviour i would reward. That way he's learning what is acceptable. If he did react I would move further away until i found the distance that he was comfortable with.
if by chance you do run into a dog and don't have time to get her to her comfort zone don't correct, just keep walking. don't stop even if she is reacting. Just march along and she will have to follow. Just get her out of that reactive area.

 Quote: jenny arntzen

I think of Jethro as "out of his comfort zone". That helps me make better decisions in the moment. Rather than getting irritated, I get creative, and focus on helping him navigate past the object, scent, or sound that is sending him over his edge.

To expand on this and also what Connie is saying, once you get into the groove with marker training you will be able to ask for and reward an alternative behavior when approaching other people or dogs. A good one to start out with, once you are sure you've loaded the marker, is a 'watch me!' command.

Once she knows 'watch me', started in the house, you can move to the yard. Once she knows it in the yard, you can move to areas of more distraction. Eventually you will be able to use this command under higher distraction; once she is able to perform it under higher levels of distraction, you are then ready for corrections for non-compliance. But not until then.

I like this command because it does not require the dog to stop moving, so it's ideal when you are walking and want to preempt her from reacting to something.

PS if you have specific questions about marker training, start a new thread and you will get lots of good advice about how to get started!

Re the dominant dog collar, you can use it as a back up collar attched to the prong but it's not suitable for correcting. Your goal with the prong is to have a tool that helps you control the dog, but if you correct unfairly with it you will likely increase your dog's reactivity.

I think I need to redo my post along with my training!
I wrote my post using Ed's verbage from what I've been watching on his DVDs not my description of my dog.

The original email to Leerburg explained that I thought my girl was confused and fear aggressive (I never heard of a fear biter before) the behaviorist that met Roxy used "fear aggressive"

I have never thought my dog was aggressive due to being dominant but out of fear. Nor did I know that there were so many options or labels to use for what she may be.

I do not think she "acts stupid" when I walk her, I think she's fearful of something and acting out. I used acting stupid because Ed says that on his tapes and I'm writing on a Leerburg forum and thought people would "get" his language.

From what I'm reading on this post, I'm doing a lot wrong and need a redo. Connie, I started reading about reactivity and will read more to be sure I don't screw that up too.

I purchased the basic Obedience, Pack structure and Dom/aggress DVDs, plus a dominant collar. It doesn't sound like I should be using any of these other than the basic dvd.

What I'm getting out of your posts is the opposite of what I've gotten from the dvds (mostly) so some questions I have are:
I don't need to crate her unless I have people over?
I don't need to leave a drag lead on and make her come with me to every room in the house when I go?
I SHOULD keep doing marker training with her?
I Should be sure she knows the basic commands plus the "watch me" and "leave it" for sure before walking? or keep walking while training and avoid others when possible.

What I don't like about what you're saying is only that if I pass a dog and Roxy does not listen to me and continues to act up pulling, barking etc, if I don't correct her with the prong I'm basically left to pull her as we keep walking (if we have to pass the dog) and that is more painful then a pop.
What materials would you recommend that has more detailed teaching on marker training then the basic Obedience dvd.

Thank you all again, I appreciate the help :-)


I hate popping the prong but know I need to use it at times. It is also the only thing that has helped me while walking her or having people over. I don't do hard pops, she doesn't need them most of the time. So I am a bit confused and concerned about making a change to something that seems to have started to work.

"I do not think she "acts stupid" when I walk her, I think she's fearful of something and acting out. I used acting stupid because Ed says that on his tapes and I'm writing on a Leerburg forum and thought people would "get" his language. "

We totally would have if you had said "in Ed-speak" ..... As soon as you said "Ed says that on a video" I remembered that yes, that is one his terms.

I'm sorry.

Better use your own words.

I'm working on a rush job but am bumping this so we don't lose sight.

Ok, the prong is only used BEFORE the dog gets to the "zone"
using it when the dog is already in the "zone" barking, lunging is counter productive and is only amping her up more.

we aren't saying don't walk her, we are saying to not bring, let or allow other dogs to get that close to her that she reacts that way, in other words enter her comfort zone.

WE all know that isn't always possible, and you will run into people with dogs where you don't have enough time to remove her from the situation.
In those cases it will be your only option to just keep walking, me i used to actually do a quick jog with Tucker to get his attention off the other dog and forcing him to quicken his pace so that he couldn't focus on the other dog.
You do have her on the opposite side of the oncoming dogs, right?
You should always have yourself between her and the other dog, technically blocking her if you can.

I went to a park that I knew had alot of dogs with Tucker. But kept a huge distance between us & the other dogs. This is where I started. I would then move forward maybe a foot and see what his reaction was. I just kept moving forward till I could see that he was paying more attention to the dogs then me and re-acting to them. That is when i knew we had gone beyond his comfort zone. So back a few feet we went. And worked from there. I would do that for a few days...then move a bit closer..gauge his reaction. etc etc....
Laura this process took and will take you a long time. It's not a quick fix at all and you have to resign yourself to the fact that although you will be able to get her to be Non-reactive while passing dogs/people etc. on the street, she will more than likely never be a dog that will be able to have alot of interaction with other dogs.
I am giving you advice on the Reactive scenario for your dog, only because I have dealt with it myself.
Others will try their best to help you with the other questions in your thread.
But i will answer 3 questions.

YES YES YES keep doing marker training!!!

If you are starting over with her then i would say yes you should have a drag line on her & tether her to you inside the house. If someone else thinks no, please set me straight.

She doesn't need to know the watch me/leave it command before you walk her. She does need to know them, yes, but you can't not walk her until she knows them. That will just multiply your problems if you stop walking her

the main main point everyone is trying to make is that you absolutely have to keep some distance between her & other dogs.
Allow them to get close enough so that she re-acts that way isn't helping.
If you have to cross the street, cross it. You have to keep a look out and watch for other dogs and like we said, remove her from the situation.

Great post.

Laura, since you are reading the desensitize and desensitizing threads (very detailed threads), you'll see that typically, an owner might say "very significant improvement" (perhaps to the point of just some situation management still needed) within 18 months or so with a dog who is as reactive as yours (which I'd say is medium).

And of course, improvement happens in chunks, all along.

One chunk will be when the dog perceives that you are always there between him and everything else and always calm and always the source of cues for his reactions. One will be when the dog is more interested in ("engaged with") you and the wonderful marker exercises he is doing with you than a dog who you have arranged to have walked past (as you are gradually introducing distractions). One will be when he marches briskly past another dog with no reaction-time allowed and realizes that he lived through it.

You are wise to realize that this is fear and anxiety. The more of a bond you have with the dog, the more you practice leadership, and the more you do upbeat marker sessions into which you very gradually introduce changes of venue and small distractions, the more the dog looks to YOU for his reaction cue.

I started to describe how you introduce distractions to a dog-reactive dog, but then remembered that it's in at least two of the past desensitizing threads that you're
reading as well as briefly outlined in Wendy's post above.

I just re-read Wendy's post just above, and it's worth a second read, Laura; it covers the bullet points perfectly.

I know I have said this boringly often, but not to you: Desensitizing work is very satisfying and has nothing but advantages, like enhanced bond, much better obedience, and increased confidence.

 Quote: Laura Silbermann

I hate popping the prong but know I need to use it at times. It is also the only thing that has helped me while walking her or having people over. I don't do hard pops, she doesn't need them most of the time. So I am a bit confused and concerned about making a change to something that seems to have started to work.

Welcome Laura,
Both your pups are adorable!

JMO but if you hate popping the prong; its not helping nor is it working for you. I understand wanting and needing to stop poor behavior but what happens when Roxy gets it right?

From your posts she seems to get it right most of the time so you are lucky. I would concentrate on extending the appropriate behavior with lots of praise, affection and attention. As has been suggested limit the opportunities where the bad behavior is exhibited and if she ends up in one; just get away as quickly and with as little fan fare as possible.

Also, if she carried a ball for confidence for the first few years of her life and then it was removed without having built up her confidence; she may have been a little overwhelmed. I am not suggesting letting her carry around a tennis ball all the time but maybe if you carry a ball on a rope and can pull it out and let her grab on while you trot her past an oncoming dog or stranger when they are too close you won't need to correct. A win-win for both of you. Timing, as with a correction, is critical; you need to have produced the ball before she reacts. This would not be forever as she understands what is appropriate and expected you can remove the crutch.

Keep in mind this would all be done as you desensitize her to what triggers her anxiety. I feel bad that this suggestion might seem contradictory to what you have been told and I am sure it is not the quickest nor most effective method; but I firmly believe you need to feel good and comfortable with whatever choices you make in training your dog.

Wendy, thank you. I understand the prong order and what you're saying and will change the way I correct because of that.
Yes, I always move myself between Roxy and oncoming anything.

I'll take your park advice and start working with that as well.

I don't think I'm going to start with the drag line and tether unless I'm told a really good reason to do it. It seems to stress her out more and since she comes when I call her or she's laying down being good I don't see the need (unless I'm missing something again):-)
Roxy does know her commands, watch it and leave it but I have to reinforce them with markers before using them on walks. I started marking the watch it command today so all she does is stare at me now lol.

Last year I lost 2 German Shepherds, one I had from 9 weeks old and I had to put him down in Feb right before he turned 8 due to dreaded cancer. I am still not over the lose of that boy, and the other I rescued at age 7 and he passed from bloat in July at 11 yrs old.
They were both people friendly, but my young boy was attacked by a dog while I had him at training school at a young age and from then on he turned aggressive towards dogs (I didn't know about fear aggression then). If a dog was near us he would grab them by the neck and THANKFULLY just hold them, did not shake nor bite them, but he took many years off of my life the 3 times he did this, the other times he would act just like Roxy does. I'm now a pro at avoiding! but I've never had a dog that didn't like people and this is a huge problem, as you know. We can't have a sitter watch her or come to watch my little one so we have to take her to the kennel and they deal with her pretty well and have her labeled as "manager only".
I've been so excited with my results this week with the prong and assumed over time it would continue to get even better.
Hopefully with your suggestions I can continue doing whats been working and the rest will now follow.

Thank you again!

Connie, thank you! I'm reading and reading :-)

Sheila, Thank you too! I do hate the prong (but I hate anything to do with pain) but I do use it, am learning to use it better and it has been working for us.
Roxy has been picking things up quickly and changing her behavior for me. I correct her when she does not listen, and when she does listen, which is most of the time other then passing dogs I give her a lot of praise both verbal, food and touching.

I love the jogging past and the ball on a rope ideas. I've tried a tennis ball, but she's never interested while on walks but I'll try the orbee. I don't think she was given the ball to carry for confidence but more to keep her mouth busy because when she has the ball in the house she paces around the kitchen and when I take it out she lays down calmly. who knows thankfully she's past doing that now.
I wish I could video tape her all day. She's really a great dog. Hopefully with all the advice you all have given me, I'll be able to make her feel better, confident and trusting of me.
Thank you!