Quote: Anne Jones

 Quote: Kelly Byrd

A handler aggressive dog is a totally different dog then a fear biter. An aggressive dog will give warning(or the aggression is brought on by a correction/force applied from the handler) May not be a growl, but it's there if you watch body language. FA dogs do not always warn.

Doesn't have to be brought on by any action of the handler & not always ANY warning until it happens. If there is body languange it can be so fast before the strike that you can't see it. Sometimes there is a vocal or solid body language you can see. Sometimes it is just a look in their eye. Not always easy to spot, especially the first couple of times it happens. I wish that I could say I didn't know about HA.

Koe borders on HA. As many DS's do. He's a good boy.... but I'm careful. We've had our moments.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

If a dog bites the handler w/o a warning, is the dog afraid of the handler?

I would say, no, in most cases with a fear aggressive dog...unless it is a new handler to the dog & they have not formed any kind of a bond yet. With a fear aggeessive dog, the owner/handler is usually view as the dog's protector, comfort zone, safe haven.

I supposed that may be different if, as some say, the fear aggression can be created. I don't know about that. My experience is with a timid pup that became more fearful & then became very fear aggressive & going forward with his aggression by 6 months old. He was not safe to have in public or around any strangers. Very sad.

A handler aggressive dog WILL try to tag the handler.

I've got to be careful. E collar work has made life easier... he takes that MUCH better then a prong collar correction. It's funny, while Koenig can be HA, he's totally perfect with my kids, even when they scream commands at him (in German, of course...lol) I've learned boatloads with Koenig. Maybe a Dutch wasn't the best introduction into the world of 'real' working dogs. Steep learning curve)

 Quote: kelly byrd

 Quote: john axe

Kelly when i was young i felt the same way. Be careful i pulled handler aggressive dog's off their handlers and seen plenty of handlers hurt by their own dog.if you ever had a dog really try to hurt you you can't wait for him to stop. some dogs will give you a warning some won't. it's not all about corrections some will go on you over praise .

a Air Force handler told me years ago it's hard enough to train a good dog let alone a bad one...

A handler aggressive dog is a totally different dog then a fear biter. An aggressive dog will give warning(or the aggression is brought on by a correction/force applied from the handler) May not be a growl, but it's there if you watch body language. FA dogs do not always warn.

A "handler aggressive" dog can start associating the correction with the warning (superstitious behavior?) and not necessarily the behavior that caused the correction. They then learn to completely avoid the warning and go right to the bite.
With a fear aggressive dog I think it's whole body language is a warning that this dog may bite.
Fear biters are born. Handler aggression is, IMO, created more often then not.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Fear biters are born. Handler aggression is, IMO, created more often then not.

You don't think that certain lines of dogs have a higher propensity to be handler aggressive?

Sure they dog but I'll always believe that the majority of it is handler created. Unfair or poorly timed corrections would be at the top of my "why" list.
"Handler aggression" can be created as easy or easier with a dog that has weak nerves then a good solid dog but in the weak dog it's usually panic and defense.

Agreed

 Quote: Al Curbow

All it takes to understand it is to own a serious fear biter one time.

LOL… I thought that might spark some controversy. With Edward, I think he was a tough dog and the product of some harsh handling. I believe he was biting out of fear but 5 years turned that around nicely.

Vince is entirely different story. Just a few examples (but I have plenty):

A few weeks into owning Vince, on a mountain outing, ran into a conservation officer. He was interested in the dogs so as we were chatting, Vince on leash sitting by my side, CO about 5 feet away, Vince would not take his eyes off him. I was fairly comfortable that Vince was also comfortable with the positions and the interaction that was happening. The CO just moved his footing, possibly taking one step towards us. In a split second Vince crawled up him without making a sound. All teeth and gums with a throaty, guttural sound emitting from him. As his paws hit his chest, I’ve never given such a strong correction in my life.

At the Michael Ellis seminar he was secured to an eye bolt in a block of cement on the field. Michael touched (literally a little tease) his butt with a whip and Michael is fast, he backed up as Vince hit the end of line and was straight in the air, again all teeth and gums, fighting to get at him. I really don’t think the tease had much to do with it. He was initially within Vince’s bite range and staring him in the eyes. He simply said, put that dog back in his crate and proceeded to tell about his weak nerves and that he was a fear biter.

It was kind of interesting, one of the club members came up to me afterwards and said don’t feel bad, you’ve got one hell of a personal protection dog there. I wish you luck with him. And I could hear the concern in his voice.

Prior to that a “so called” sport trainer attempted to agitate him with no prior training. He put his arm out with the sleeve and as he got closer Vince crawled over the sleeve and was heading for his shoulder/neck area when I yanked him back. He tried it one more time and told me to hold the leash low, in an attempt to keep him down. Didn’t work and I certainly didn’t like what I was seeing. He said to come back and he would work with him but that’s when I contact Mr. Frawley.

He said to stop all bite work because based on the way he was biting he sounded like a fear biter. A bit out of sinc here but that’s when I sought out Michael.

A couple of little old ladies just came close to the vehicle and wanted to “see the dogs”. I’d like to say Vince was offended by the blue hair, but quite frankly, they were simply humans that he would have much preferred to take a bite out of rather than look at. The terror is these ladies’ eyes has him now clearly out of view where senior citizens are concerned. Not to mention the two bad bites on small children prior to him coming to me.

I can’t begin to explain the management protocols we have in place for this dog. The liability risks are huge.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

There are indeed dogs born with faulty wiring.

It is like something is short circuiting with him at the most inopportune times. However I got him at 10 months and he had some pretty extreme conditions he was living under. We’ve both come a long way in the relationship, to a point where his unpredictability is predictable and I can accommodate the adjustments needed, if that makes sense.

And I know most wouldn’t waste their time or take on the liability issues of a dog like this but we’re set up just fine and run a really tight ship. I don’t mind a dog with an edge but I’m also seeing what I can do to hone those really sharp spots.

A project dog some might say but he’s a lot more than that, to me. Like I’ve said before, he’s a one man dog. He lives with and enjoys Bob’s company but he works for me.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

My other question is -- do they ever get over it completely?

Give me a few more years, we’ll see how it goes. The BH is our goal. That handshake Kelly did with the judge in the end (at precisely 16:06) is my biggest challenge at this point. He can ignore most things but that’s just too close right now, and I’m sure the direct contact like that would have Vince either connecting with that hand or crawling up the poor guy.

I also fear that with the testing I’ve done with him (the ME evaluation, the previous agitator), I may have done more harm than good. He performed and the threat went away. But at least I know more precisely what I’m dealing with and what he’s capable of.

a lot of handler aggressive dogs( not all)are caused by handlers who didn't make the correction hard enough they reach for the dogs toy, dog growls they back away, dog get stronger. then the dog thinks he's a lion i've had to fix quite a few dog's who thought they were handler aggressive