Hey Mara, you’ve got some good questions and observations here, let me see if I can address them for you. And sorry for the late response. It’s our Thanksgiving here today and I finally got a chance to get to the computer.

 Quote: mara jessup

Why can't you continue on in this manner? For a dog like Vince I think I'd just want him to understand that he doesn't have to deal with people. That he is perfectly fine ignoring them.

Yes, this is exactly where we’re at now, and he’s actually really good with the ignoring part as long as they ignore him. The problems come in when we’re close enough for interactions and they happen to glance down at him. One time, in a more desolated area, running into one gentleman, I put him in down quite a ways behind me. He did fine but this isn’t possible in all situations. If there happens to be two or three people it’s gets a bit more complicated.

It would be nice to have him by my side, not ready to lunge should someone look at him or make a sudden movement.

 Quote: mara jessup

If he's already tensing up with people at a distance then that is the reaction you need to change. People should = look at handler and wait for what we're going to do next. So what can you do to get that response?

It’s not so much at a distance. He’s can be pretty solid at about 4-5 feet and quite a bit closer is some situations. Walking along, side by side, also not a problem at all. It’s the up close, facing towards him. And I can’t put enough emphasis on the eye contact.

I stared at this boy pretty much all evening once trying to figure this out, probably a good hour all tolled. I was on the floor face to face with him to begin with – after about five minutes, he gently nosed my eye. He knew what I was doing. He just stared back. After a while he rolled over and got all wiggly but didn’t lose eye contact. He wasn’t tense or nervous, almost like he thought it was great fun. No problems with Bob either.

No command is released without eye contact. When I say his name, he gives me direct eye contact. He’s got a pretty good focused heel and a “Look” command, but he loses all focus on me when this reaction hits.

We’re at a point where people can be sitting around, walking around, going about their business - he’ll watch, alert but relaxed. The minute someone gets near him and happens to stare at him is when he lunges. He’s removed and settles quickly.

I think this is where all the desensitization has worked its magic, with the settling after the reaction, he’s a complete different dog. Once the tension hits, he’s quickly redirected with his ball and eager to catch/retrieve it. Simply turning him around now will turn him off, instantly.

 Quote: mara jessup

Kipp is dog reactive if he doesn't have something to do. I can see his little mind go into overdrive - "oh no, what next, oh no what next, etc, react" I've tried the "deal with it" approach with him and it just makes things worse.

Vince isn’t all wound up like this, he had his moments when he was younger but he's matured nicely – it sure does sound like a border collie though LOL. He’s got a great long down, settles nicely when told and really could care less about other dogs – take em or leave em kinda thing. And people too, (well... no take em, just leave em) as long as they’re not directly approaching. And there’s often very little warning – no 1st, 2nd, overdrive – he’s usually got it together until that tension hits. A growl is music to my ears – at least I know he’s uncomfortable. A bark, well he’s singing my song. That I could work with if it was consistent enough.

 Quote: mara jessup

So I give him something to do. Play ball, carry a peanut butter kong in my pocket that I can slip to him to keep him occupied, teach him coping behaviors. And he's figured out that all he has to do is ignore and focus on something else. He'll look to me with a what are we going to do look.

LOL… me too. I get that look all the time: http://i684.photobucket.com/albums/vv210/wolfpup2227/TripeandtheFlats091.jpg
Don't mind the bulky jackets - I've got the remotes, leashes, a treat bag and balls in there.

But Vince is much the same, he rarely makes a move without looking for some sort of approval… except for this.

 Quote: mara jessup

By highlighting a perceived threat and focusing on that, you're often showing the dog that he does indeed have something to worry about.

Yes, I totally agree with this, hence my approach on this issue so far. However, we’re on two years now and yes, he’s made some incredible progress but I feel he’s locked into this behavior process. We’ve got the before nicely under control, the after is a simple switch, but the need/desire/necessity, whatever it is, to perform the actual act, is still there.

If I continue on the same path I’m afraid we’re just going to continue getting the same results. I don’t want to stagnate him here. I really feel we can whip this. I’m just not sure how to go about it without putting him in an actual position to face this head on. And if I’m going to do that, he’s going to need immediate direction that his behavior is not acceptable. A ball can’t do this.

My head is spinning thinking about this. Ram, why did you have to send me that video, I take back everything nice I said about you.

That’s not true at all. In fact I couldn’t be more thankful. This is something I’ve been thinking about for a few months now; Ram’s video has simply spelled out the process correctly with directions and has sparked me to get my thoughts in order on this. Not to mention, it’s got the added benefit of seeing a potential reaction to the process. It doesn’t look pleasant.

But I also know that some of the best things in life can come out of some pretty tough times. No worries though, I’m still firmly planted on the fence.

CJ,


Some times, I feel like I write a lot about myself when answering questions. This is because, that is all I have to offer. Just my experiences. I have no formal knowledge or training . I train by intuition and what I read and learn. As you can imagine , it is an iterative process of learning with many course corrections along the way.

Now that I have gotten the disclaimer out of the way, I will honestly tell you what worked for me. You are the best judge of what will work for you and Vince.


So here it is.


Before jumping into the corrections based solution, try desensitizing him sub threshold.Bring him to threshold and then correct.

Step 1: Keep Vince hungry

Step 2: Take him out to a quiet park or a meadow and ask some willing stranger to appear in sight say 50 meters away or 100 meters away. Which ever you think is sub threshold. AND ASK HIM TO STARE AT VINCE.

Step 3: The moment Vince looks at him , click , reward with food.. Repeat this for a few days. PS: I would not be giving Vince the ball once he tenses up, to diffuse the situation. It teaches him that tensing up is rewarding.

Step 4: Then ask the strange man to take one step towards vince. Click / reward. Keep moving the man , one step by one step closer to Vince and some where he will not respond to the click by taking the food, or like my boy Kaiser, will take the food but spit it out. This is the threshold. This is where you need to work.

On a different day (not on the same day if it does not feel OK)
Step 5: Do a very abbreviated version of Step 1 through 4 to re calibrate your threshold point.

Step 6: Ask the man to take one step closer than when Vince spit the food out. And I assume Vince will be glued to this guy because the strange man has crossed that "invisible line" and in Vince's mind it will be like "I can't take this anymore" , BUT HE IS NOT ACTING OUT . Ask him for a totally incompatible behaviour. Like a total down with his chin on the floor (you need to teach him that and proof that before this).

Step 7: If he blows you off, then correct him strongly and tell him that you won't put up with his insolence. The correction should make him go "Wow!! I don't want to deal with my master today".

When he blows you off , you are correcting him for not downing. But the correction it is not for fixating on the man. It is because you commanded him to down and he did not. He blew you off and that is unacceptable.

If you already do not know his "Ouch!!" point. You have to be prepared to keep escalating the levels of corrections disproportionately till he complies. If you are going to increase the correction level in small increments, there is risk of him learning to work through them.

making him go "Ouch!!! that hurt" will teach him that he has to pay attention to you even if the heavens are falling down. It is my intuition that it is not the physical pain that made him pay attention, but the fact that his mom is the one administering it that makes his world shatter to pieces.

I am guessing this because I know how my dogs behave.

When he is all crazy and lunging and you correct, the correction does not quite reach his head. The correction should come before he acts out his emotions.

This is how I taught my dogs Bommi and kaiser. I can make a video of how they behave around aggravating stimulus when I am around and when I am not around.

If you saw me walking them you would think that they are sweetest of dogs. You will not say the same if you saw my helper walking them with me not present in the environment.

As hard as it is for me to say this (because of my human condition, how ever my dogs do not begrudge me for this), there is nothing more in this world my dogs fear than me. If I wanted to sugar coat it, I can use the word Respect.

I am being very honest when I say that I administer HARSH corrections to my dogs may be twice or at the most thrice in their lives so far (1.5 - 2 yrs). That is it!!! God's honest truth!!! I am not making them cry on a daily basis, because I look upon them and treat them as a part of me.I say this with a bit of trepidation as harsh corrections are looked upon as abuse by many.

These are the kinds of corrections that will make my eyes well up with tears when I go to bed because after all they are my babies. But when the situation demands, I will not tolerate insolence. Under no circumstance. There is no doubt in my mind when I take that dog by my left leg that I will do WHAT EVER NECESSARY to achieve compliance. It is very clear in my mind and it is very clear in my dog's mind that I am capable of enforcing compliance.
(PS: When I ask my dog to sit and he stands or lies down or heels that warrants zero correction. It just means that I have been a bad teacher. When I ask my dog to sit and he blows me off and is fixating on the other dog/human then that is a breach of conduct)
If you keep at it, eventually obedience becomes a habit for the dog.

Example: If you look at a soldier saluting his drill sergeant, it is a great example. If you walk up to him and ask him why he saluted , he would say "I don't know!! That's just the way it is"

It is neither the fear of punishment (even though that was the primary motivation in the begining) nor the reward of scoring brownie points with his superior that made him salute. He saluted because he has been conditioned to do so, by 1000s of repetitions. It is just second nature.


This is the sort of relationship that best describes obedience for real world. The dog should not heed your words because it fears you or because it thinks it can get some treats from you. It listens because "that is how it is".


There are some dog's that will break under pressure and those dogs cannot be trained. They can be taught tricks that they can perform under controlled environment.


You cannot have a dog that is obedient 95% of the time. It is like having a balloon that is un punctured 95%.

Either I have an obedient dog or I don't. Sit, down, stand, heel, fetch, bite , track are all little tricks that can be taught with or with out obedience.

Obedience, in my view is just one behaviour trained and proofed.

"Pay attention to my master".

All other behaviours are irrelevant.

You have to figure out for yourself how to achieve that. No one can tell you. Do what your heart tells you. At the end of the day, it is more important for you to accept your dog than for the world to accept your dog. But, you knew that already.

I have a boy kari, whom I cannot train. He cannot handle pressure. I will destroy him if I tried. So I just love him for who he is. The other three can handle it, so I have put them under the anvil and forged good specimens to the best of my abilities.

Hey Ram, thank you so much for this input. I really appreciate your prespective on this, not to mention an interesting understanding of the approach you've used in your training and the great result because of it.

However, not having this dog from pup, there were a lot of unknowns as to some strange reactions and behaviors Vince was initially displaying. I could only guess as to the causes and you don’t want to know where those guesses took me. But that’s all behind him now.

I’ve spent two years building up this boy to the wonderfully obedient, proud, eager to try new things, companion he is today. He faces each day with such enthusiasm.

Often, what many people take for granted in a dog has been a constant, daily conditioning with Vince. Whether initially a learned behavior or a distorted (in our view) result from inherent tendencies.

And don’t get me wrong, I’m no stranger to corrections. I’ve even trained wonderfully obedient pets using yank and crank methods, but (IMHO) when I learnt better, I did better. Not to say that both methods don’t have their pros and cons. But with Vince, and who I found him out to be, I’ve taken a physical correction free, rewards based approach. It’s done wonders.

In the state this dog came to me, I’m sure a prolonged, even properly applied, Koehler approach would have had him so tightly buried in a shell, it would be painful to try and pry him out at this point.

Ram, as I said in an earlier post, I could start introducing leash corrections at any time. I think he’s mentally mature and strong enough to handle appropriately applied negative pressure but I’ve never “spoken” to him this way before. And at this point, the need is “almost” nonexistent.

I’m going to spell this out fairly harshly but I’m am a realist and it seems to me you’re fairly black and white too – so this is just how I'm understanding what you're saying :

You’re saying I should starve my dog, train a “head on ground” command, introduce a clicker to mark him staring at a stranger as he approaches, and when Vince reacts (takes his head off the ground), correct the snot out of him, all over time of course.

Ram, I get what you’re saying here. I truly do and I can’t begin to tell you the admiration I have for you and what you’ve accomplished with your pack, and continue to do.

I do believe this would work for many dogs with perhaps a much different training foundation and a different temperament. With Vince, I believe this approach would not only be completely terrifying on a prolonged basis, it would have much the effect that Mara explained so perfectly:

 Quote: Mara Jessup

By highlighting a perceived threat and focusing on that, you're often showing the dog that he does indeed have something to worry about.

A couple of other things in Vince’s situation – he has no food “drive”. None. He will take treats when he’s relaxing in the house, but even in the comfort of my own yard, when a training session is about to begin, he simply humors me. To get him to actually swallow is a training process in itself that we’re currently working on. I can’t think of a single scenario in public where he would even be willing to humor me. He turns his head to the side very matter of factly.

Also, a public scenario like this would entail me actually approaching a stranger and explaining that my dog is potentially going to be reacting to him in a very aggressive manner and (in the eyes of most in this area) I’m going to be abusing the snot out of him when he does.

But like I said, personally, I do fully understand your approach and agree that under the right circumstances with the right dog this could be very effective.

With Vince, should I choose to take this approach, I would like to do it as close to the Bernard Flinks method as I could get it. I was thinking about the familiar solitude of our acreage in a very controlled environment. I have a couple of acquaintances in mind (one that he’s reacted quite strongly to in the past) that I believe may be up for the challenge.

I would have them sit and watch the video with me ahead of time (two, three, four times, whatever it took) to ensure they knew exactly what I was trying to accomplish, what I needed their behavior to resemble and the reactions they may be potentially witnessing.

They would be rewarded with beer and pizza and ultimately, when their services were no longer required, I’ll have a dog that they’re able to look at with relative ease.

And if we can even get this far, I believe I would have something to work with in different scenarios, eventually taking it out in public.

Again, just my thoughts in trying to think this through.

CJ,

Do you train with markers?

I think Ram is asking you to do this training when your dog is hungry (for example, you would marker train with food before a meal, not with a full stomach, you can do this by making Vince skip a meal).

I don't think you necessarily have to use a clicker, I marker train with a verbal marker, so if that's what you use with Vince, just use your verbal marker.

As far as I can understand it, Ram's is trying to get Vince to make the association that he is being corrected for not obeying a down, not because a stranger is approaching.

When you correct a dog for showing aggression, if the dog makes the wrong association, he may think, "Whenever a stranger gets close to me, my mommy corrects me..." versus "mommy corrected me because I didn't lay down when she told me to."

Hey Melissa, yes, he has fully loaded balls.... hmmmm, that didn’t sound right and in a different context, would not be true at all.

But yes, behaviors, the moment they’re performed, are marked with a "Yes" and a ball drops from the sky for a catch/toss.

And if only missing a meal or two was that simple with him. I know some think it's nearly impossible for a dog not to be food driven if they’re hungry enough but its hit and miss and with him. He’s got an incredible stamina to avoid food. Like I put so bluntly, I think I would literally have to starve him out. At least two days and maybe train on the third. I’ve done a day with training in the next afternoon and he still refused at many points. I exercise these boys pretty hard, I had to give him dinner the second night.

And yes, I definitely get the correction for disobeying the command, not the approaching stranger. But it’s the approaching stranger that is causing the disobedience in this case.

He’s able to maintain prolonged commands in most every situation he’s put in, but the overwhelming intensity of this makes this otherwise obedient dog want to lash out. And because of the nature of this behavior, the correction is taking place when there is full focus on the stranger, therefore associating the pain with the stranger. My take on it anyway.

With the “Be Nice” command, it’s given with full focus on the stranger approaching. He’s been asked to “sit” but the loud “Be nice” is a further layer (in my mind) explaining how he is to behave while in the “sit”. Therefore when the correction gets applied, and the "Be Nice", repeated and reinforced, it’s for exactly what it is, the lashing out.

Yes I suppose you could look at it as him disobeying the “sit” too but as Ram explained earlier, we’re not going to apply these harsh corrections for the simple stuff. I would like the correction to be directly applied to the aggressive response to the approach, not for breaking a “down” when he was terrified.

Gosh I hope that makes sense.

CJ,

I was suggesting that you skip a meal so that he may be more receptive to take the treats from you when a stranger is standing 100 metres away. This is just so that we can find out where the threshold point it. Threshold point is where he will not take his food.


The down with the chin on the ground has nothing to do with being hungry or anything , it has to be trained separately at your own convenience. I was just using it as an example of a behaviour that is totally incompatible with aggression.


And yes, as Mellssa said the correction should be for not obeying your command, and not for aggressing.

There is no , starvation or yank and crank. Sorry if I gave you that impression.

Ram

Oh Ram, it sound like my “Harsh reality” piece may have really come across that way and that was certainly not my intention – tried to include a little "grin" there. Mincing words I suppose, but with Vince, that’s pretty much what it would entail, which I tried to explain with the way Melissa seemed to have interpreted it as well. I’m sorry for that.

I did understand what you were saying though which I tried to say following that:

 Quote: CJ Barrett

Ram, I get what you’re saying here. I truly do…

and:

I do believe this would work for many dogs with perhaps a much different training foundation and a different temperament.

Thresholds are an interesting thing with him and this. They’re about as unpredictable as people are.

As I've said a few times, Vince was a very different dog when I first got him. We’ve done and continue to do a lot of desensitization and proofing work in strategically planned areas.

We have a busy little general store here that I was able to work behind, then in the parking lot, events in our small community that I look forward to, not so much for attending but they’re occasions that people are going to be out and about and various other venues. I’ve done a lot work exposing him to “life” from non reactive distances and figuring out what he’s capable of handling before I ever took him in public.

To pass a hobo coming towards us, under a bridge minding his own business, Vince will now have little to no reaction. Passing a woman coming towards us with two kids in tow, we still have to give them a wide berth. A man approaching with an intention to “pet the pretty puppy”, will get a full blown reaction pretty quickly.

So you see, it’s not quite as easy as “he’s over threshold now because he won’t take a treat” (which he wouldn’t anyway) to determine these reaction zones. If I was to instill this “Be Nice” command, it’s something I could start to apply to different scenarios (corrections included if necessary) and would give me a command to work with directly in relation to this behavior.

But it’s the actual training of the command and providing that “meaningful” learning experience that has me in such a turmoil.

CJ,

Hm....I suppose the "be nice" command would be somewhat equivalent to the "leave it" command?

I just think a physical "sit" is so much easier to convey that an emotional state of mind of "being nice." What is the possibility of Vince just suppressing his fear/agitation instead of truly entering a more peaceful state of mind?

Just a hypothetical question, if Vince is 95% people-tolerant instead of the current state (maybe 80%?), would you manage him any differently?

This is an interesting thread

Happy Thanksgiving

 Quote:

If I continue on the same path I’m afraid we’re just going to continue getting the same results. I don’t want to stagnate him here. I really feel we can whip this. I’m just not sure how to go about it without putting him in an actual position to face this head on.

I understand this. I debated it with Missy quite a bit. What was the balance between how much progress she could make and what was fair to ask of her?

It was interesting because many things she didn't do just because she'd never done them before - she hated getting out of her comfort zone. But once she was out, if I could make it a good experience, she was ready to do it again the next time.

I only forced her on a couple of things. The rest was just baby step after baby step. And often I saw the progress looking back. As long as you keep working you don't stagnate. Even if it seems so at the time. These dogs are lifetime project dogs and handled right, you'll see progress for their entire life. With this type of dog, your paramount concern is your relationship.

So yeah, willing helpers (lots of beer and pizza :grin and baby steps. It's a long haul sort of thing.

 Quote: melissa hau

Hm....I suppose the "be nice" command would be somewhat equivalent to the "leave it" command?

I understand how you’re looking at this Melissa and yes, he does have a “leave it” command. In his case it’s “Bucky”. He will stop sniffing something, move away from things, spit something out he’s not supposed to have. In relation to this reaction, it has no meaning, no command does at this point and won't until I put some "meaning" on one.

And as far as the actual “Be Nice” wording or name of the command, I think Mr. Flinks explains this so well. It’s a pretty harsh command in its underlying training foundation (consequences the dog will not think twice about) much like Ram’s foundation but it’s also directly related to suppressing aggression when told too. The “Be Nice” is solely for the public, a “pleasing” message being conveyed to the dog. If only they knew hey. “Do it and die” wouldn’t come across so nicely.

 Quote: melissa hau

What is the possibility of Vince just suppressing his fear/agitation instead of truly entering a more peaceful state of mind?

And you know, I don’t know what the potential outcome of this might be. Seeing him advance the way he has so far, I think it has good possibilities or I wouldn’t even be considering it. However, I don’t have any blinders or rose colored glasses on. I think it’s probably much along the same lines as my initial “wait and see” guesses – will he grow out of this, is this something I can desensitize him to, will confidence stop these reactions, will I win the lottery tomorrow?

It’s a crap shoot but in my eyes, at this point, doing nothing when I feel “something” has a chance at achieving at least some success, would be like giving up. And I’m not prepared to do that just yet.

Would I manage him differently? You know I have an elderly boy that couldn’t hurt a fly if it was fighting him for his dinner, another young one that’s doing agility and therapy work and Mr. Vincent. I’ve always run a pretty tight ship where my dogs are concerned. They matter to me greatly and I don’t want anything interfering with that.

Whether is Garrett’s desire to socialize or Vince’s desire to bite, they’re not going to do anything that I don’t allow them to – ever. If Vince improves, it will be just that, an improvement. I will watch for his ability to handle ever increasing challenges that I present him with and hopefully he ends up with a more settled internal way of dealing with the humans he encounters along his journey. To quote Ram in a way – Saluting all humans and forgetting how or why he’s doing it.

Would I manage him differently – no.