Nice way to explain that Richard. I think we see eye to eye here.

BTW, that only took you 20 minutes!

I think Ed should move some of your topics more often, that'll teach ya. . .

The electric collar is just another form of compulsion. ANnone that decides that they are going to use one should seek out a proper instructer in order to learn how and when to use it. I feel that they are great to use in dogs for training when all of the drive work is done, the dog can take a prong-collar correction and you need to polish or clean something up. They are also great for maintaining a finsished dog. Dogs with problems in the out are also canidates. But one must be cautious with this tool, while you can kill a dogs drive with one, I have also seen dogs load and fight when given a shock. As far as them being only a tool when all else fails I am not sure that is true in all cases.
Cindy makes an excellent point that not all great dog trainers are great e-collar instructors. This is a tool that one must master. It in most cases at high levels of compulsion it is not as forgiving as other methods.

As sometimes happens I get into these discussions late and so this is going to be long and will address the comments of many that have already contributed.

Frederick Reese wrote: I would also make sure that she knows how to make it stop before using it in an uncontrolled situation (like when I have her off lead with available distractions).

LC: Excellent advice. One of the essentials of using the Ecollar properly is that the dog is guided such that he knows how to make the stimulation stop.

WolfLarsen wrote: I'd like the board to tell me when to use it, and the basic DONTS of the collar. This would be helpful.

LC: It can be use for just about anything that you’d use a leash and training collar for, and more. For a list of warnings take a look at this link, written by Donn Yarnall.

http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=00001
5

LC: For a list of myths about Ecollars, take a look at this link that I wrote.

VanCamp wrote: Don't use em', they super suck, unless you are a REAL PRO. I stand by this no matter what anybody says.

LC: I disagree. Anyone can be taught to use an Ecollar. I do it fairly frequently with people who have little or no understanding of K9 behavior theory.

Chuck F. wrote: I don't have much real experience with ecollars and there are some who are real good at it, but I will say that from what I've personally seen is that just about everyone that I know that uses them has a dog that is a nervous reck.

LC: Let’s start off with a few basic rules. Any tool can be abused. Any tool can be misused. No tool is idiotproof to the right idiot. I think that the Ecollar is the BEST training tool that’s available when it’s used properly. I train people from complete novices to people who have been training dog to decades in their use. If a dog is a nervous wreck, it’s because the trainer didn’t know what he was doing. That’s a trainer problem, not a tool problem. You can achieve the same (bad) result with any tool.

LC: If you want graphic proof of how little stress can be involved in proper Ecollar use, take a look at the Dogtra Donn Yarnall video tape.

Chuck F. wrote: I will say make sure that someone who really knows how to use one shows you the deal.

LC: I couldn’t agree more with this statement. If you get bad training you’ll just pass it along.

Mickey - Belgium wrote: I believe ecocollars should be only used as your last choice, if you tried all other techniques out there and still no results.

LC: this is not an uncommon viewpoint, especially among those who haven’t used Ecollars with the most modern methods. I disagree, and use them right from the start on basic OB.

Richard Cannon wrote: I don't think the argument being put forward is that e-collars aren't effective tools, I think the argument is that used improperly they can cause more harm than good. That would be true of almost any training tool.

LC: I disagree Richard. I think it’s true of ANY training tool not "almost any training tool." LOL.

Richard Cannon wrote: The decision to use one needs to be based on several things. One is the knowledge and experience of the trainer, one is the temperament of the dog (often this determines how the collar shoud be used)

LC: Richard I think that before the use of ANY tool that the knowledge and experience of the trainer should be considered. As far as the temperament of the dog, I don’t consider it. I look at it while training but it’s never a consideration as to whether or not to use the tool. Some will say that they should not be used on sensitive dog but I’ve had GREAT success with those dogs.

VanCamp wrote: I didn't even say that they are bad training tools. Just ones for the advanced trainer.

LC: I take pet owners who know nothing about training concepts and have them using the Ecollar in a few days of working with them. This device is not that difficult to use properly. I wouldn’t restrict them to advanced trainers. The important thing is to get good training in their use.

VanCamp wrote: I would also go so far as to say that even if you are experienced with training you should still have a Real Pro help you.

LC: Excellent advice VanCamp!

Richard Cannon wrote: I have watched several trainers screw up some very good dogs by abandoning techniques that are working, blaming the tool rather than their ability to use it. I have seen dogs go from adoration of a handler to fear of the handler because of improper use of an e-collar. That isn't the fault of the e-collar but the user.

LC: More excellence!

LC: If anyone is interested there are two lists devoted to Ecollar use. I only recommend one of them but you are, of course free to make your own decisions. To join the “good list” LOL

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecollar_Dog_Training_Plus/join

LC: If anyone has any specific questions ask away. BTW in response to the question that started this, I use and recommend the Dogtra 1200NCP. If you don’t need the waterproof or pager features then I’d go to the 1100NC model.

LC: I wrote a review of the 1200NCP that you can read at

http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=23&t=000004

Lou,

Somehow I had a feeling we'd be hearing from ya' on this one!LOL Nice response.

Vince,

I too thank you for the compliment.LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
However, its not so unusual anymore for me to be "out there" on anything! I told you, that VanCamp is rubbing off on me.LOL <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Sorry Sgt. Castle, I still will not be swayed. I knew the real heat was gonna come down pretty soon. I actually thought that it would be Josh Lewis first. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I think that the nature of the training collar, and the ability OF THE AVERAGE IDIOT TO SCREW UP while using the collar, makes this an advanced training tool. One that should not be used without experience and proper training. You had better know what you are doing. There is not as much room for error with the e-collar as there are with other corrective tools. There are a lot of people out there that may just go buy one, pop it on fido, and start frying him. That is not training, it is the idiot factor, thats why I said what I said. No, I don't think it is rocket science but it takes some talent and skill to use properly. Am I wrong? At the very least a person will have to understand compulsion and it's uses in training. That by itself is a difficult concept to learn and more difficult to apply in training. How many dogs have we all seen that were messed up by someone using correction at the wrong time, applying the wrong amount of force, screwing up timing, whatever? You feel me here?

I did notice that you liked half of what I said, thanks.

I think that I will also make the statement that you are a Pro and under your watchful eye and experince one could be tought how to use them. But how many people are out there with your experience? How many people are out there now reading your post thinking,"hmm he said its not that tough to use, I think I'll try." Idiot factor waiting to happen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Zzzaaaaaaaaaaaaap! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Van Camp makes some excellent points in his last two posts. I hardley doubt that the average Joe understands dog behavior that well to use an e-collar without coaching from someone that is knowledgeable. It is not a tool for everyone, and every dog. Most people that do not understand dog behavior will make uncorrectable mistakes with the collar.

AND, I have seen police dogs screwed up even after training with the experts.
REMEMBER, e-collars can magnify faults; the dogs and the HANDLERS.

VanCamp wrote: I actually thought that it would be Josh Lewis first.

LC: Josh will probably show up pretty soon. Not very long ago he held the same attitude as you do now. Then he saw how easy it is to use an Ecollar properly.

VanCamp wrote: I think that the nature of the training collar, and the ability OF THE AVERAGE IDIOT TO SCREW UP while using the collar, makes this an advanced training tool.

LC: I understand your thinking and it’s not uncommon for those who aren’t familiar with modern Ecollar use. The “average idiot” as you call him can “screw up” with any tool. With most other tools he can not only damage the training, but physically damage the dog as well. This makes the Ecollar safe for the complete rookie. All he can do is mess up the training, not the dog.

LC: Earlier today I talked a complete novice to the Ecollar through "crittering," teaching the dog not to chase (in this case a cat) animals. She had never before used an Ecollar. We spent about an hour on the phone. She sent me an Email later saying that in the first lesson, lasting about 30 minutes, she got her dog within 5' of the cat. She said that she's been completely unable to do this with other methods. She never went above the 8 level (of 20) with the Ecollar.

LC: Before our conversation she was the "average idiot" as she put it. She's hardly a pro, but she managed.

VanCamp wrote: One that should not be used without experience and proper training.

LC: No tool should be used with proper training. How does one get experience with any tool, except by using that tool?

VanCamp wrote: There is not as much room for error with the e-collar as there are with other corrective tools.

LC: Any damage to the training that can be done with an Ecollar can be fixed, with an Ecollar.

VanCamp wrote: There are a lot of people out there that may just go buy one, pop it on fido, and start frying him.

LC: Except for the term “frying” this is the case with ANY training tool? Anyone can buy a pinch collar (insert the tool of your choice) and go out and start abusing a dog, messing up his training. This is not the fault of the tool, it’s the trainer.

VanCamp wrote: That is not training, it is the idiot factor, thats why I said what I said. No, I don't think it is rocket science but it takes some talent and skill to use properly. Am I wrong? At the very least a person will have to understand compulsion and it's uses in training. That by itself is a difficult concept to learn and more difficult to apply in training.

LC: Quite regularly I take people who have absolutely no concept of training theories and teach them to use Ecollars. The problem lies not in the tool, but in the education. What tool does not take “some talent and skill to use properly?”

VanCamp wrote: How many dogs have we all seen that were messed up by someone using correction at the wrong time, applying the wrong amount of force, screwing up timing, whatever?

LC: This occurs much more frequently with other tools than the Ecollar.

VanCamp wrote: I think that I will also make the statement that you are a Pro and under your watchful eye and experince one could be tought how to use them. But how many people are out there with your experience? How many people are out there now reading your post thinking,"hmm he said its not that tough to use, I think I'll try." Idiot factor waiting to happen.

LC: Thanks for the kind words. There are more and more people who are learning about this tool. That’s what my seminars, those of Donn Yarnall, and others, are about. To change from an “idiot” to someone who is competent with an Ecollar takes but a short bit of time.

Michael Taylor wrote: I hardley doubt that the average Joe understands dog behavior that well to use an e-collar without coaching from someone that is knowledgeable. It is not a tool for everyone, and every dog. Most people that do not understand dog behavior will make uncorrectable mistakes with the collar.

LC: If you take out the word Ecollar and insert any other tool used in dog training, the paragraph makes just as much sense and is just as accurate. People should be trained to use whatever tool they decide to use. I can’t think of an “uncorrectable mistake” that can be made with the Ecollar that can’t be made with any other training tool. Can you suggest some?

Alan wrote: AND, I have seen police dogs screwed up even after training with the experts. REMEMBER, e-collars can magnify faults; the dogs and the HANDLERS.

LC: Many more PSD’s screwed up with choke and pinch collars than with Ecollars, yet no one is having this conversation about those tools.