Oh, good, much better than any fish liver oil.

Sounds like he needs a skin scraping asap. (This could be an actual {painless} scraping, which is really just taking off some cells with a dull blade kinda like a butter knife, or it could be lifting them off with the medical equivalent of sticky tape.)

Then the vet can look for external parasites, which I'd probably be suspecting from what you describe on the chest.

JMO!

Connie,

Still working on this allergy problem with my boy. I'm convinced his licking is not fleas.
So I want to try an elemination diet for him before I go for the skin scraping test. I've been giving him raw Chicken, mixed veg, salmon oil, vit e, and pumpkin.
Would Raw Turkey be enough of a change for a protein ? Or is that too close to Chicken? I really do not have access to unique proteins. We have frozen rabbit at grocery store but around 8.00 a lb. We kinda live in them middle of nowhere.

 Quote: Geri Gill

Connie,

Still working on this allergy problem with my boy. I'm convinced his licking is not fleas.
So I want to try an elemination diet for him before I go for the skin scraping test. I've been giving him raw Chicken, mixed veg, salmon oil, vit e, and pumpkin.
Would Raw Turkey be enough of a change for a protein ? Or is that too close to Chicken? I really do not have access to unique proteins. We have frozen rabbit at grocery store but around 8.00 a lb. We kinda live in them middle of nowhere.

Nothing in this thread points to food, for me. I know I keep saying it and saying it, but there's a really good reason: a food trial done at the wrong time in the diagnostic procedure is loaded with false negatives and positives. And it wastes (forevermore) the protein you use as a possible protein for another elimination diet.

"My boy has been itching since he was a pup. He is 3 now. I started him on a raw diet over a year ago and the itching seemed to let up till this winter."

Food allergies in a puppy .... true food allergies in a puppy are very rare. Possible? Yes. Likely? Not at all. And they are never seasonally affected.

You saw a derm vet? I didn't go back and thoroughly review the thread yet ... not sure if we mentioned how much more there is to do before considering intradermal. The derm vet isn't going to jump right into intradermal testing.

QUOTE: The diagnosis for food allergies is very straightforward. But due to the fact that many other problems can cause similar symptoms and that many times animals are suffering from more problems than just food allergies, it is very important that all other problems are properly identified and treated prior to undergoing diagnosis for food allergies. Atopy, flea bite allergies, intestinal parasite hypersensitivities, sarcoptic mange, and yeast or bacterial infections can all cause similar symptoms as food allergies. Once all other causes have been ruled out or treated, then it is time to perform a food trial.

Food trials and elimination diets: A food trial consists of feeding an animal a novel food source of protein and carbohydrate for at least 12 weeks. A novel food source would be a protein and carbohydrate that the animal had never eaten before. Examples would include be rabbit and rice, or venison and potato. There are a number of such commercial diets available on the market. In addition, there are specialized diets that have the proteins and carbohydrates broken down into such small molecular sizes that they no longer would trigger an allergic response. These are termed 'limited antigen' or 'hydrolyzed protein' diets. Homemade diets are often used, as the ingredients can be carefully restricted. Regardless of the diet used, it must be the only thing the animal eats for 12 weeks. This means no treats, no flavored medications, no rawhide or pig's ears; absolutely nothing but the special food and water. In addition, the dog should not be allowed to roam, which may result in him having access to food or garbage. END
from Doctors Foster & Smith at http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2&aid=143

Why it matters: An elimination diet that is not conclusive has wasted a protein source. The protein you used can never again be used in another food trial with this dog.

And you already have a shortage of novel proteins.


But I'll shut up and address the question: Has the dog really never eaten turkey? No turkey in a dog food, or turkey treats, or turkey from the table? Never? "Novel" is individual. It has to be completely novel (never eaten before) to the individual dog.

I have to go to an appointment, but I wanted to pop on and urge that you consider these two major points (about wasting a novel protein, and about "is it really novel to this dog?"). But when I get back, I'll try to help more. I know this is not a help, and I know how frustrating itchy-dog mystery is.

I'll be back. I'll even explain a home-cooked elimination diet if you want to supplement calcium using ground eggshells (or purchased supplements) so that you aren't tied to RMBs.

But:
"He licks his paws, sometimes the base of his tail, and sometimes the rear of his back."

I am so not convinced that it's not fleas.

And even if not fleas, there are so many things I would do before even thinking of an elimination diet for this dog. He has no food-allergy symptoms except the paws, and that symptom overlaps all three of the top kinds of allergies.

All JMO.

Hi Geri,

I just uncovered a Postit reminder of this thread.

I was going to give you elimination diet-formulation links, if you still wanted that ... but I was wondering whether "Has the dog really never eaten turkey? No turkey in a dog food, or turkey treats, or turkey from the table?" (from above).

Also wanted to know if I/we could help with possible environmental/inhalant measures while you regroup, perhaps for a derm consult.

Hi Geri,
I went through the exact same thing with Kasey when he was young - thinking it was food, and definitely not fleas. The problem with flea sensitivity is that all that has to happen is to have one flea jump aboard on a walk and bite the dog, and it sets off a cycle of itching, then the dog bites which leads to more itching, and soon they are a mess of self imposed problems. Even if they have a flea topical on them they can get an occassional bite before the flea dies.

I would definitely have the skin scrapings done at minimum at this point, just to make sure there are any external parasites or yeast/bacteria that could be causing the problem Kasey is highly sensitive to ANY yeast at all, especially between the pads of his feet and around his mouth. We go to a derm vet now for the last few years and she has gotten that under control so he doesn't have yeast anymore, but even a little bit can make some dogs really miserable.

All this to say, that unfortuntely there are a lot of things we don't even think of that can cause a dog intense itching and only a derm vet knows how to really get in there and figure it out - we spent way more money at the regular vet trying to get the itching diagnosed than we did at the derm vet once we gave up and went there. They are much more experienced at being able to look at the dog, and know by what they see, what is causing the problem Just because you go to a derm vet doesn't mean you have to sign up for hundreds of dollars worth of allergy skin testing!

Ah, Lori, I wish this was a billboard:

" .... we spent way more money at the regular vet trying to get the itching diagnosed than we did at the derm vet once we gave up and went there. They are much more experienced at being able to look at the dog, and know by what they see, what is causing the problem Just because you go to a derm vet doesn't mean you have to sign up for hundreds of dollars worth of allergy skin testing!"

Sorry ladies for posting w/o reading the new posts from you all.

We did get a Derm Vet appmt for June 12th.
Thanks so much for your help. You really gave me some good things to think about. So I will forget about the food elimination diet right now. (Although, my husband aready cut up a whole turkey for my boy). So that will leave turkey out when we do decide to do the elimination diet. Oh well.
Very good thoughts on the possibilities of yeast or I was reading it could also be fungus.
So if we get to the point of doing the food elimination, later on, I'm sure I will be looking for advise and ideas.

Question about teeth moved to http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32304&page=1#361942


Edited by Connie Sutherland (05/24/2012 10:45 AM)
Edit reason: mod edit

Connie,

I would love any suggestions on possible environmental/inhalant measures that you mention in your post.
Any concerns with flea meds.? I have him on Advantadge 2 right now. Vet tells me that if they are allergic to this that they usually just have problems around the area where you put the lotion.
Thanks

I'm not Connie, but I'll offer two cents worth, and I'm sure she'll be along directly with more.

I've found the best approach to dealing with environmental/inhaled allergens includes:

1. Limit exposure to the allegen. This might take some detective work, but if you can deduce that it's something outdoors (like a pollen) because the dog seems worse after being outdoors, or sleeping with the windows open, then limit exposure. Rinsing off the dog with plain water and wiping paws after being outdoors will help remove some of the pollen so the dog isn't constantly exposed after coming back inside.

If you suspect a dust might allergy, then remove soft bedding and/or wash it frequently. And vaccuum frequently.

2. Over the counter antihistamines help reduce the itch--especially when combined with fish oil. Benadryl works for my itchy Corgi in the fall--the dose is generally 1 mg. per pound of dog, twice a day.

Flea protection is extra important with an allergy dog. The risk of the fleas is way worse than any risk from the flea meds, IMO. If the product you're using is working, then stick with it (but still be vigilant about fleas...some fleas are becoming resistant to the meds, so just because you're using a product doesn't mean fleas are impossible.)

Tracy,

Thanks for answering.
We pretty much do everything you say. The dogs do not play outside. They do go for 2 or 3 walks aday.
We wash our throw rugs every week. They are on Advandage 2 every month. He is on an antihistmine from the vet. Also is on fish oil 2 times a day.
He is also on antibiactics right now as his skin is in sad shape from this last round of problems.
The derm Vet said to discontinue the antihistmines 2 weeks b4 we have our appmt. Not sure how the poor guy is going to survive that.