OK, now we're getting somewhere, kinda. . .

Valdork YOU didn't make a comment about positive punishment and the retrieve, SchH1 did.

Now, here is what I'm talking about. Dog starts to move, breaking the down. I nail Fido at a high stim level, just once, and Fido stops trying to get up. That is positive punishment right? Every time he tries to raise up you zap him. You can use a quick shot at a higher stim level, rather than continuoulsy stimin the dog till you redirect him to the down. Higher level of unpleasantness, longer lasting association of keep my booty on the turf?

Alternatively you could stim the dog at a high level, lower the level as you continue to stim and redirect the dog to the down and stop zappin. That would be negative reinforcement.

I guess NR is the best way to use the collar for the down. Considering that a dog is hard as heck.

OK all jargon aside VanPunk. what you're saying is one is instantaneous and one is continous. I think it all depends on the level of correction and the stress level of the dog. I would think a very high level of correction would make the dog fearful and nervous depending on the dog's temperament therefor making it a little bit harder concentrating on what to do. We are assuming that the behavior was already taught through positive reinforcement, right?

Whats positive reinforcement?

he he he JK he he he

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Valdork YOU didn't make a comment about positive punishment and the retrieve, SchH1 did.. Darn, I was hoping when Valdes took the blame, I'd get over!

Originally posted by VanCamp:
Now, here is what I'm talking about. Dog starts to move, breaking the down. I nail Fido at a high stim level, just once, and Fido stops trying to get up. If you can intercept the behavior as it is beginning, and if the dog reacts to the zap by resuming his platz, great. But what if the high stim doesn't suppress the behavior, but in fact makes him leap up in surprise and pain? In taht scenario, the punishment isn't effective by itself because now the dog is standing up (maybe scurrying away) and we wanted him down. Now you have go to negative reinforcement to teach him what behavior will allow hiim to avoid that stim in the future.

ok,
so what exactly is positive punishment? punishment, by definition is negative.
positive reinforcement, as i was taught, is to reinforce a behavior with positive motivation (food, toys, praise)
so we're really talking about negative reinforcement (correction) and whether to use a short electric stimulation or a continuous, correct?
that varies from one dog to the next, but in my experience, it is usually better to use a short stimulation (however the "nick" button is usually too short. i press the continuous and immediately release). continuous electric stimulation tends to overload and confuse the dog, and i've seen a lot of dogs that continue to "feel" the stimulation after you stop applying it. whether this "feeling" is real or imagined, it is real to the dog. so after they give the appropriate behavior, if they are still feeling the electric impulse, they are getting corrected for doing what was corrected--unfair, confusing, BIG PROBLEM
also , the electric collars i am familiar with automatically shut off after 8 seconds.
don't know if that answers anything. this thread is hard to follow.

The four types of Operant conditioning...

Positive Reward
This is giving something as a result of giving a desired response.
Example: Bite of food for running in a circle and chasing your tail. The food is what is added.

Example: Praise for sitting when commanded to do so. The praise is what is added.
---------------------------------------
Negative Reward
This is taking away a stimulus as a result of giving a desired response.
Example: A noxious odor is removed when a dog stops barking. The odor is what is taken away.

Example: A shock is ended when a rat completes a maze. The shock is what is taken away.
----------------------------------------
Positive Punishment
This is when an aversive is added as a result of not giving a desired response.
Example: A dog is shamed when it growls at a child. The shame is what is added.

Example: An animal is shocked when it fails to perform a target behavior. The shock is what is added.
----------------------------------------
Negative Punishment
This is when you take away something pleasent for failure to exhibit the target response.
Example: Food is removed because a dog didn't dance on its back legs. The food is pleasent, and is what is removed.

Example: Freedom is removed becasue of running away. Freedom is pleasent, and is what is taken away.
---------------------------------------

That ought to make it clear as mudd Corgipower.

It was mentioned previously by SCHH3FH2 that positive and negative has to do with adding and taking away, not whether it is pleasant or unpleasant. Confusing, but technically that is correct.

Van Camp,

Reinforcement is always more effective than punishment. Punishment is dependant on the subject percieving the punishment as present. If it isn't, the dog will see no consequences to the behavior. So in order for punishment to be more effective the dog has to associate it with something that is always present and independant of you. In addition it doesn't teach what you want, just what you don't want.

The other problem is to make sure the punishment isn't associated with you. First, you can't always be there. Second, you don't want to be associated with a negative stimulus.

Even with negative reenforement the dog associates you with something good, turning off the stim. It also teaches the dog that good things come if you follow the commands.

Valdes 43 wrote: Once that is solid (generalization done) you eventually end up where you tell the dog "bring" without stimulation and out of fear drive the dog goes and gets the dumbell. If the dog gets the dumbell then he does not receive the aversive if he doesn't get the dumbell then that is where you go to avoidance conditioning/P+ by backing up what you've already taught him. makes sense?

LC: If done properly the dog is never afraid of anything. As often happens there are a couple of terms that are being used differently by different people and so there’s a breakdown in communication. “Escape training” refers to the dog performing faster and faster to shut off the stimulation once he understands that it’s his behavior that makes the discomfort stop. “Avoidance training” is when the dog is performing well and then you don’t give a stimulation at all. The dog has performed so well that he’s avoided the stimulation completely.

VanCamp wrote: I certainly understand how the forced retieve works. My point is that can use positive punishment to teach as well, right?

LC: Yes, you can. But the Ecollar allows you to use two phases of operant conditioning during training. You give positive punishment when you press the button and when the dog performs the movement you release the button. That’s negative reinforcement. Throw in praise with your voice or physical contact or treats and you’ve got three sides of the OC box.

Sch3FH2 wrote: positive punishment is presenting an aversive stimulus to WEAKEN, ELIMINATE, OR REDUCE THE FREQUENCY of a behavior. In other words, you can punish behaviors you don't want, and it will reduce them or eliminate them, but that NEVER teaches the dog what he should be doing. It never strengthens a behavior. So the dog will never understand what behavior he should be doing (retrieving), but he will definitely learn all the alternative behaviors you don't like!

LC: Positive punishment is good for getting a dog to STOP doing something but, by itself it’s not good for teaching a dog to DO something.

VanCamp wrote: If you use negative reinforcement to teach the down (e-collar), and you do it correctly will the effects be more lasting than using positive punishment (with e-collar) to keep the dog down.

Is there science that shows what method is more lasting? I don't know if you use extinction in terms of aversives, but is one method more resistant to extinction?

LC: I don’t know how you’d use JUST negative reinforcement with an Ecollar. The negative reinforcement comes when you lift your finger off the button and relieve the pressure of the stimulation. But you can’t do that unless you’ve first pressed the button and given the positive punishment. If you use the momentary mode it’s closely aligned to a leash pop with a correction collar. But I think that it’s on and off too quick for any significant negative reinforcement to take place.

LC: I don’t know of any science on this.

VanCamp wrote: Now, here is what I'm talking about. Dog starts to move, breaking the down. I nail Fido at a high stim level, just once, and Fido stops trying to get up. That is positive punishment right? Every time he tries to raise up you zap him. You can use a quick shot at a higher stim level, rather than continuoulsy stimin the dog till you redirect him to the down. Higher level of unpleasantness, longer lasting association of keep my booty on the turf?

Alternatively you could stim the dog at a high level, lower the level as you continue to stim and redirect the dog to the down and stop zappin. That would be negative reinforcement.

LC: I’ve had more success with the second method, using low level stim.

corgipower wrote: so what exactly is positive punishment? punishment, by definition is negative.

LC: The term negative an positive here are being used in the context of operant conditioning. Sch3FH2 explained this earlier.

I knew I'd sucker you into this thread sooner or later, Lou. lol