"the dog can't choose what to do"

Boy, that was HUGE around here. We had real breakthrus after I grasped this concept of the working dog, so different from a pet.

Course I have a little dog, so it's MUCH easier.

Jenny, maybe you're over thinking the whole thing. Do obedience everyday. When the dog gets reactive and doesn't obey you, correct the dog, if the dog still doesn't obey correct him hard, then move forward.

Muzzle "punches" can do serious damage so don't rely on that with a dog aggressive animal.

You know how you want him to act so enforce it till he acts that way. Thats how I do it. Puppy aggro is BS, If any of mine ever went after a puppy to hurt it I would cream the dog, mine know that and I could put any puppy out with them and nothing will happen, your dog needs to learn that., that's all.

 Quote: Al Curbow

Jenny, maybe you're over thinking the whole thing. Do obedience everyday. When the dog gets reactive and doesn't obey you, correct the dog, if the dog still doesn't obey correct him hard, then move forward.

I totally agree with this and the other posters who have mentioned it. It doesn't matter what the triggers are, obedience is key.

I have a young Mal who hated strangers from the age of 6 weeks. I live in a large apartment complex, so we see strangers every day. I did months of desensitizing and conditioning work, but it often got screwed up because we'd often run into people unexpectedly coming around corners, out of doors, etc. I also train very "positively" for the most part, and my last dog was incredibly reactive as well, so I am very familiar with the methods that you have been using. I started to think I was just going to have a crazy reactive Malinois forever.

Then I got sick of it. I reached the conclusion that so many here are pointing out. I was allowing her to make the decision to react and act like an a**. She has very solid obedience (we practice and have fun with it a lot) so there was so reason for her to "not remember" how to behave around triggers. It scared me at first to bring corrections into dealing with reactivity because you always hear that it'll make it worse. But, you aren't correcting the reactivity, you are correcting a blow-off of a command. And it worked. Amazingly. We went to an agility fun match yesterday and she didn't react once to a new setting full of strangers and dogs, and even held her start-line stay with her back to a row of people and dogs. So there is hope!

I agree with what others have said about corrections for not following a command.

I don't use a 'leave it' command for reactivity to dogs/people. I think a recall, heel, sit, watch me, etc. is much more effective and clear for the dog than a leave it. I also think a 'leave it' command might not be suitable for a working dog- particularly for SAR or detection. Just my experience here. I do use 'hey' to get a dog's attention back on me, but that is more of a bridge to the next command. I'm curious if or how other people use 'leave it' in regards to reactivity. I've tried it and discarded it.

Many dogs are just too big and strong for a handler to correct with a prong or other collar. In this case, an e-collar may be the way to correct a large dog properly and with minimal stress to all.

This is a timely thread for me. We are hitting the teenage months with my pup, and it's time for me to step up and re-think some of my training. It's all a learning process. Everyone makes mistakes at some point.

In the end it comes down to quality of life for you and your dog. The end goal is always to have a good relationship with your animal, and enjoy life together. Training is all about being able to live with each other in a calm way, and go through your day effectively communicating with each other.

You have spent a year trying to bribe Jethro into being a good boy. It works most of the time, which shows that you have done a good job showing him exactly how he is supposed to behave when something excites him.

What is happening now is that the bribe is not worth more than the self reward he gets out of being reactive. When a dog gets aggressive, there are chemicals released into the body, including adrenaline, which make the dog feel good. Every time Jethro comes across stimulus, he makes a decision. He weighs the value of reaction to the stimulus against the reward he may receive if he doesn't react.

In training, we often let a dog choose his reward by offering up several different treats and toys and allowing the dog to chose his favorite. This lets us train with the highest value treat to the dog, so the reward for exhibiting good behavior is of the greatest value.

Ask yourself, if Jethro was off leash and left to his own accord, which is how you test for the value of a given reward, would he choose to eat a bit of hot dog, or would he chase a puppy? Which is of higher reward to him?

Keep your answer in the front of your mind.


BAT works because the functional reward, what the dog really wants more than anything, is to be farther away from the stimulus. A fearful dog has learned that he can create space, effectively removing that which is making him uncomfortable, by displaying aggression.

Dog becomes fearful - displays aggression - stimulus goes away. THIS is what the dog wants. A fearful dog won't eat, so that food reward doesn't mean anything. BAT works with a fearful dog because the dog learns that the best way to make the stimulus go away is to remain calm.

Jethro doesn't want the stimulus to go away. He isn't afraid of that puppy, so the functional reward of leaving the stimulus isn't going to work. He doesn't want that puppy to just go away so he can be safe. He wants to be excited and act inappropriately because it is fun for him.

So now you are in a battle of rewards. Every time Jethro comes across a situation where he wants to act up, he is deciding whether the reward in your pocket is of more value than the reward of reacting to the stimulus. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. He will never be reliable in this training model because he has too much freedom to make up his own mind, and the rewards are of similar value to him.

You now have a dog that will make up his own mind, which is what you want. Given all possibilities, we would all have our dogs assess a situation and make the right decision, through being shown what that decision should be. You have effectively shown Jethro the course of action you prefer when he comes to a situation he finds stimulating. He has shown that he understands this. He knows what you want him to do. Now he is in a position of making that decision for himself, and sometimes he makes the wrong decision, willingly. That is important to understand. He is willingly making the decision to blow you off and do as he pleases. He is not reacting to stress through fight or flight response.

BAT uses tools to allow dogs to deal with fight or flight. This is not Jethro. He is not acting through conditioned response to fear, he is doing what he pleases because he chooses to do so. It is your responsibility to define what is acceptable behavior, not his.

It is time to stop helping Jethro to deal with his reactivity and show him that he has to listen to you or there are consequences. He will not come to this conclusion on his own, which is what you are waiting for. I know that you want that light bulb moment where he has it all figured out and behaves as you have trained him, just because he wants to. He is just not going to do it on his own. The reward he gets from acting up is too great. It will always be there in the back of his mind.

YOU need to be the boss. You tether him to you so he can't get away and hurt someone. You walk in fear of things that happen out of your control, waiting for someone to walk between parked cars or around a corner, putting you into a situation that , in your mind, you can not control. BAT insists that you manage your dog's
environment constantly, which you can do. Just not wile walking through a crowded neighborhood. That is why you walk at night, when the distractions are so low.

You are not confident that you can handle Jethro in any situation because you have no control. You can get him to comply in a distraction free environment, so you have trained the appropriate behaviors properly. You can add a modicum of distraction and still see compliance to your commands, so he knows without a doubt what you are asking of him. The next phase of training is proofing those behaviors. Jethro needs to learn that there are consequences for not responding in the appropriate manner when given a command.

I know you quit training with a prong because it was increasing his reactivity. IMO, the correction you gave your dog was far lower than it needed to be. Most people nag their dogs to death with too small of corrections. If you correct for the same infraction more than 2 or 3 times, your correction was not hard enough. I understand that this is a difficult thing to do, because you know that it hurts. The last thing you want to do is cause your dog pain. I'm right there with you. That is why I will make it count when I give a correction, especially on a dog that is not fearful. I don't want to pop my dog 1000 times for failing to heel when I turn away from something that she wants to investigate. I do it once, and we move on. You won't hurt your relationship, you will establish it.

Here is what I suggest:

Get your mind right. You have to know, deep down inside, that you have 100% control of your dog when he is on a leash. 100% Get rid of the tether and the belt, you don't need it, and it is giving you a feeling that this piece of fall back equipment is going to save you. YOU need to save you.

Put a correction collar on Jethro, be it a prong or DD, and don't fret over it. Do not be nervous or fearful or worried about your poor little dog. He can take it. Put it out of your mind.

Go for a walk. Don't avoid anything, or watch for things that may amp him up, just walk. when you get to a point where Jethro is interested in something inappropriate, ask him to pay attention to you. Have him sit, down, touch, watch, whatever. It really doesn't matter. Ask him to do something, and when he blows you off, wind up and give him a good correction, harder than before. Don't get mad. Don't feel sorry. Just give him a correction, repeat the command, and then praise him when he complies.

Continue your walk. Put everything out of your mind and just walk. Run through some OB stuff in a distraction free place and mark - treat. Keep it fun. When you get to the next stimulus, repeat the precess. Ask him to walk away, or sit, or watch. If he responds well, praise him up. Mark and treat. If he doesn't respond, your first correction wasn't hard enough. Rinse and repeat. If he comes up the leash after you, string him up. He has to know that you call the shots, period. He can't believe that he will ever win against you, and get his own way.

Your relationship will change from a playmate, to a fun person that Jethro respects and knows he must listen to, and it won't take long. You are at the cusp, you just need that last little push and you two will be happy together. He won't have to make decisions and get stressed out. You be the leader, he will thank you for it.

Disclaimer: there is a very small chance, and I mean very small, that Jethro will try and bite you, because he has gotten away with doing whatever he wants for so long. If you feel this is a possibility, find a different trainer, that is not trying to use the wrong tool to help your dog, and have them help. I recommend going to a SchH club, where they are used to dealing with far more reactive dogs than Jethro. So I say this: if you follow my advice and get bit, it is your responsibility, not mine.

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

I agree with what others have said about corrections for not following a command.

I don't use a 'leave it' command for reactivity to dogs/people. I think a recall, heel, sit, watch me, etc. is much more effective and clear for the dog than a leave it. I also think a 'leave it' command might not be suitable for a working dog- particularly for SAR or detection. Just my experience here. I do use 'hey' to get a dog's attention back on me, but that is more of a bridge to the next command. I'm curious if or how other people use 'leave it' in regards to reactivity. I've tried it and discarded it.

Many dogs are just too big and strong for a handler to correct with a prong or other collar. In this case, an e-collar may be the way to correct a large dog properly and with minimal stress to all.

This is a timely thread for me. We are hitting the teenage months with my pup, and it's time for me to step up and re-think some of my training. It's all a learning process. Everyone makes mistakes at some point.

Leave it means whatever you are focusing on is inappropriate, so focus on something else, not necessarily me.

If my dog is on a search and is 50 yards away and obviously sniffing piss or food, I want to be able to refocus the dog back into the search without going through a recall and restart of the search. I also don't want to call the dog off a potentially productive area, so I say leave it, and the dog understands that it needs to get back to work.

I don't like to break a pattern to stop and then restart. If we are walking and she shows interest in something on the ground, I can just say leave it and continue walking, without going to a formal heel or watch me, and then a release. It's just easier for me. I'm usually doing something besides just walking with my dog, like pulling security or looking for something / someone, so I train what is easier in an operating environment.

Jenny,
Is your head spinning? It must be tough to read posts that are running contrary in many ways to methods you have been working so diligently on.

Until Connie posted the link to the BAT training; I had no idea why the triggers and working through each and every one of them was so important to you. I do see a place for this type of behavior work in the circumstances they describe....but I don't see Jethro fitting into those descriptions.

I agree with Al and Tabatha but I'd say Jethro has grown a little full of himself and doesn't IMO show you enough respect that I would suggest you implement an obedience program which contains correction without the assistance of a professional obedience instructor, if he or she has aggression experience all the better.

I whole heartedly concur you have an Obedience issue which is why an obedience trainer is the way to go.

Edited by Sheila Buckley (05/07/2012 04:11 PM)
Edit reason: Kudos to all posts we were all typing together

 Quote: Kiersten Lippman

I agree with what others have said about corrections for not following a command.

I'm curious if or how other people use 'leave it' in regards to reactivity. I've tried it and discarded it.

My trainer, who trains working and service dogs, and who is also the head of our SchH club, taught me and Sadie "leave it" at our initial evaluation. It is not a desensitizing method. It is an obedience command that tells the dog that "you are not allowed to react to that, get back to work".
I have been doing desensitizing work also, and it has helped tremendously, especially after I learned how to relieve her tension. However, "leave it" is still necessary at times.

Ex; Sadie knows when she is inside that she is not supposed to act up when she sees the mailman through the window. She knows better, and that's when the obedience command comes into play. She goes to her quiet place and chills. When we are outside and the mailman is approaching, I work on desensitizing her by putting her in a down, soothing her, and refocusing her to me with treats. Eventually the desensitizing work should make "leave it" easier for her, or unnecessary altogether.

OK- that makes sense. If it doesn't de-rail this thread, can you or David detail how you taught 'leave it'? Starting at the beginning, working up to major distraction (a reactive dog close-by) I'm more than willing to retry training this, and I think it would probably be useful for Jenny?

I was probably going about it the wrong way. The way you and David explain it, it sounds similar to 'on-by' in skijoring= pay no notice to that moose and get back to work.

I start on a flat collar and 6' leash, and walk through the break area, not in a formal heel, where all the dogs do their business, because I know she will want to sniff there, and I also want to discourage crittering (being distracted by urine or feces). When the dog stops to investigate, I say "leave it" and continue walking, with no further commands. I do the same thing if the dog is focused on another dog. If the dog is stubborn and wants to stay focused on the spot or dog, I give a light pop on the collar and move on.

We continue this until we can walk through the break area with no distraction while on a 6' leash.

The I move to off leash with an e-collar on a low setting in the same area. When the dog starts sniffing a spot, I give the leave it command, combined with light stim, until the dog turns away from the spot of interest, then just go about business as usual.

When she is successfully walking the break area off leash, and responding to the leave it, I move to training venues with known hides, so I won't inadvertently stim the dog when it is on odor. I will also make sure that there are distractions on the venue, such as urine, food or other animals. Whenever the dog stops for more than a couple of seconds to investigate something, I give the leave it command with low stim, stopping the stim when she moves away from the distraction. I allow those few seconds because she has to work independently and discard odors on her own, so I offer her time to make those decisions. If she then needs direction to continue the search, I will give it.

Before long, the command to continue the search is not needed, and the training is complete.

I hope that helps. It is the least compulsive way I could think of to train the command. Somebody must have a marker solution, but I couldn't think of one. With Fama, I didn't want her attention to come to me after the command, looking for a treat. I wanted her to go back to work.

It took us about 5 days of training to get it solid.