Sonya....I have 3220 posts on this forum for 9 years as well as other working dog forums...trust me they are not just eager jumps onto other posters suggestions.....just jumps on foolish advice when given.

Most of my posts are solid advice from many years of experience with multiple dogs (& horses,cats & other various critters) & 10 years with w/l GSDs W/ SchH & PP training as well as training other owners dogs.

The idea to frighten a puppy into silence is stupid!


Betty has it right. Many rides. My dogs start going everywhere in my truck with me from day one at 7-8 weeks old. The truck is their 2nd home. They learn to chill out & nap in there. Training days mean the truck all day ....in & out for training & back in to nap. The more they get used to it the better they are. My dogs would rather go with me & sit in the truck all day then to stay home alone.

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

I notice you haven't offered any advice on this thread, but you are eager to jump on other posters that DO offer advice. Interesting that. ....

No. Anne didn't offer anything after David's extremely good post (as I did not, except for minor followup) because it was such good advice.

Your post, on the other hand, has been followed by three very experienced people saying "please do NOT do this." They (we) all had a good reason.

The description from the O.P. sounds like a reactive pup. It is not good advice to say to scare her (or "startle" her) with what you termed "quick and dirty car corrections" into silence. This goes for any pup, IMO.

While you added something about it being appropriate only for "puppy obnoxiousness," there are some problems with that. The two most important are probably these: One is that all we can possibly know here is that the puppy is reacting. Two is that we cannot explain how to gauge the level of "obnoxiousness" versus anxiety. (For myself, three is that I wouldn't choose that method regardless, but I'm talking here about facts rather than my own choices.)

And finally, David's protocol will do no harm no matter what's going on with the puppy. But to frighten an anxious (or simply reactive) puppy (or any puppy) into silence with sudden loud noises can.


There are several experienced members of long standing here who know how important it is when poor advice is pointed out, because it keeps the quality level of info on this board high. If advice is terrific, then great. If it's not, then just about all the experienced regulars here will responsibly say so.

David even saw fit to make a quick post from a plane heading overseas to ask that this suggestion not be followed.


PS

Speaking up against bad advice is a good thing.

And you may disagree, and follow your own advice, of course. It just won't stand on this board without being challenged.

I've certainly made bad suggestions that were jumped all over in the past, and on consideration (and some pride-swallowing), I managed to get over it, as well as see how I was unwise. Heck, I've even recovered from the occasional nasty-gram from Ed!

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Really, just my 2 cents, my english shepherd, now 80 lbs, is a pretty territorial guarding type guy, he was really terrible in the car, barking and growling at cars, people at convenience stores,etc.
I took him on tons of rides, he never was allowed out of the car, he was not going anywhere, he had no job --- now he's a doll in the car, just sleeps.

Just try more exposure for a little while and see what happens. I didn't correct my guy at all, he just stopped it after enough car rides.

Yep, even though you don't use the word "desensitize" in your post, that's what you did.

Thanks for all your help, everyone!

 Quote: Tammy Moore

I am guessing this is a wire crate?

I like plastic crates, imo, quieter, safer , and would be easier for you to shut off her view while working on that down at home.

She is in a plastic crate. I have a wire one and a plastic one- not only is the plastic quieter, but it is much better at keeping shedding under control...

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Really, just my 2 cents, my english shepherd, now 80 lbs, is a pretty territorial guarding type guy, he was really terrible in the car, barking and growling at cars, people at convenience stores,etc.
I took him on tons of rides, he never was allowed out of the car, he was not going anywhere, he had no job --- now he's a doll in the car, just sleeps.

Just try more exposure for a little while and see what happens. I didn't correct my guy at all, he just stopped it after enough car rides.

Betty, this is what I am thinking...and I hope I have similar results!

 Quote: Anne Jones

Betty has it right. Many rides. My dogs start going everywhere in my truck with me from day one at 7-8 weeks old. The truck is their 2nd home. They learn to chill out & nap in there. Training days mean the truck all day ....in & out for training & back in to nap.

This is how I am raising Lucy. I got her at 11 wks, but she has been to and fro to work and many other places where I get out of the car, but she doesn't. Other than barking at cars while we are driving, she is great in the car. I am able to take 10-15 minutes every once in a while at work to take her out and go to the bathroom, and walk around a bit. Often times, she is just waking up when I get to the car for a potty break! This helped alleviate any concerns about her being nervous while I was gone...

Also, we happen to be parked right next to a construction site every day. This has been nice, as the seemingly loud and grating sounds, banging, clanging, people coming and going, etc. do not bother her. I can't really understand why sitting in the car in the kennel with all of this ruckus, and vehicles coming and going past our parked car does not set her off, while when we are in motion it seems to be a totally different story.

Now, update! I put a blanket over the crate today while we were driving, and she was still barking. But, I think this is out of habit, because she was not "following" the cars as they passed. Also, I could hear her "give up" a few times, and grab her ball to chew on (for about 5 seconds before starting in again with the barking!). I believe that with time she will calm down and forget about the traffic.

Although I think David's post about the down stay was an awesome example of how to add distractions to a command, and transfer the command to different venues, I don't think this a solution to my problem, per se. I think this is a psychological issue that Lucy has developed, and will grow out of. I am hoping she will calm down just like she did with crating at home. All in due time...

I am wondering what you all think about this? While what David was suggesting is great, I don't want her to lay quietly in the kennel just because I told her to do it- I want her to lay quietly in the kennel because she is calm. In other words, she is over it. This is how it worked at home, with her screaming like a banshee at first, then eventually figuring out that this isn't working, then giving up. I think these two situations are different (car vs. home), but feel that they can be approached in the same way by removing distractions with a blanket and occupying her with something irresistible like a stuffed toy or recreational bone. Eventually, she should figure out that everything is going to be okay...what to you think?

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

JMO on possible quick and DIRTY car corrections.

Dirty as in unfair? Now that's rock solid advice(dripping with sarcasm)

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

I live with a pack of 6 rescues so I tend to focus on correcting problems instead of creating perfectly obedient dogs.

And that is just sad. You don't need perfect obedience to manage your dog so that it doesn't make the mistakes that require a correction. Of course correction plays a role in bringing up a dog but it shouldn't be the focus!

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

Obviously the can idea would only be appropriate if this behavior is NOT anxiety based but simple puppy obnoxiousness.

Thank you for this caveat at least; VERY TRUE!

I apologize Rick for digressing from your post. It seems Lucy has become aware of her surroundings I like the idea of you being beside her while someone else drives. I'd try to do exactly what you do when you are walking and she reacts since it sounds like you are having success; upbeat but no coddling. At this point you don't want any negatives thrown into the car mix nor encouraging the behavior through soothing. And it is not as difficult as I just made it seem.

Once you have David's protocol followed it will be easier because you will be giving her the job of "Down" vs barking.

A great idea; is while she is working on the Down, you can take some updated pictures! That really doesn't help but I do love puppy pictures.

Goodluck!

Rick,
Missed your last post. In reply to that; She's a Border Collie cross, right? She's hard-wired to herd aka bark at moving things. IMO this is night and day to being home. It could take care of itself doing what you suggested but I would most certainly add David's protocol and mark and reward when she does the right thing to increase my chances of success. For instance, if you were beside her when she stopped and chewed her toy, you could have marked and rewarded and help it sink in that oh laying here with my ball is pretty awesome.

Don't think of it as she is only down because you told her to lay down. That is her job, a working dog gets great satisfaction from their work which leads to calmness.

I like everything you are doing but I would not rely on it to work itself out; definitely give her a helping hand to succeed.

JMHO but what do I know other than, that I like puppy pictures

" I want her to lay quietly in the kennel because she is calm. In other words, she is over it"



Sheila said: "Don't think of it as she is only down because you told her to lay down. That is her job, a working dog gets great satisfaction from their work which leads to calmness."

and I agree 100%.

In addition, think how often we are giving a command that is contra to unwanted behavior. Think how many times we teach (and reward) what we DO want instead of having to correct for what we don't want. (We teach desired doorbell behavior instead of screaming "No, down, be quiet, stop" when someone comes to the door. We give our reactive dog the job of marching right along in the zone and not stopping to think about giving the stink-eye to the dog across the street.)

You will be giving her a satisfying and confidence-enhancing job, AND you will be giving her a rewardable command that is what you want in the crate in the car so that she is not doing what you don't want in the crate in the car.

And this all does lead to her realization that calmness in the car works out fine, too.

I hope this is less garbled than it looks to me. Long day.

 Quote: Sheila Buckley

Rick,
She's a Border Collie cross, right? She's hard-wired to herd aka bark at moving things.

Maybe the pup needs a bark and herd things related job? If she does this every day she may have decided that herding cars is her job. I've met several border collie types that needed a defined "job" or they found one themselves.

Not the complete answer but it might be an element to it.

Just an echo here...

I also thought herding for the first two pages of this thread, but then Rick said he tried putting a blanket over the crate and it didn't help. This leads me to think that the behavior is anxiety-based, with the cars (herding) being just ANOTHER outlet for the anxiety/excess energy.

Rick:
Either way, the behavior needs to be desensitized, and one of the keys to desensitizing is redirection. Without a command or job, or a higher value food or toy item, to focus on, the dog's attention will still be on what causes the anxiety. This is why, when most of us here are desensitizing a dog to a distraction, we give the dog an obedience command to focus on.

Example;
My dog is crate-trained and absolutely loves her crate. She also loves company, unless she's in her crate. If a stranger, such as a repairman, comes over, she willingly crates, but is nervous and reactive. If I tell her to "down" while in the crate, though, she settles nicely and does not react to the stranger milling around in the home (a timely treat doesn't hurt, either).

One other note; sometimes temperament can interfere with a dog "just getting over" certain things. If your dog is sharp or fearful, it may never adjust to some certain things without extensive desensitization.

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

JMO on possible quick and dirty car corrections, I live with a pack of 6 rescues so I tend to focus on correcting problems instead of creating perfectly obedient dogs.

I'd be willing to bet that your dog would rather have a command to obey than a noisy can shaken in his face. One of the principles that every credible dog trainer (at least, that I know of) operates on is that a dog wants to know what is expected of him. More obedience means fewer problems to correct.


ETA; Have you met Andrew?