Here's a clip of two of mine using the "safe zone" concept: https://youtu.be/ebUwLfOq8sI
(new website is nldogs.com. it was an ol video)

And..... Yeah, I train dogs in my Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu/MMA school. Very unique place. Lot of cool training opportunities. Place while 20 guys fist fight, is hard work!!!!

GOOD STUFF, thanks, Jay...

 Quote: Jay Jack

As to the how to teach the fluency in calming signals...

This would be training the DOG who is Receiving "calming signals" from the DOG who is Sending "calming signals" how to Pay Attention and SETTLE, is that right, Jay ???

Here are a few Calming Signals that I recognize:

Exaggerated Yawn / Diverted Gaze / Head Turned Away / Body Lowered / Shrill Yelp / Back Turned Completely / Full Avoidance (Escape -> Hiding) -- Could you please list some others ... That will help NEWBIES learn what to Look For when their dogs are interacting with each other, so they can INTERVENE

 Quote: Jay Jack

When a dog is clearly asking for de-escalation and the other dog doesn't listen... I will move in and mark "ah ah", and "place" the dog that wasn't listening.

This would be giving a Verbal Correction of "ack-ack" to the dog who is Annoying or Bullying or Over-Stimulating the other dog who wants to SETTLE, and then issuing your "back-off & stand-down" command (go to bed, go to corner, go to mat, wherever) to the Offending Dog by ordering it to PLACE, is that right ???

 Quote: Jay Jack

In short order, if there's consistency, the (Receiving) dog will see the (Sending) dog's "calming signal" as essentially a conditioned punisher. They will "avoid" the (OWNER'S) correction by backing off after the K9 "cue", to avoid my mark and place command. It effectively teaches the "offending" dog respect for Calming Signals given by the dog who wants to SETTLE.

I also teach "safe zones":

These are zones where there is no arousal allowed (no dog-on-dog "bothering"). For me it's the whole house. But for some it's the kitchen, or even just the couch. Doesn't matter. What matters is when the dog knows there's a "home base" they can go to and ask for a break, they will usually take it. MOST dogs don't want to fight. They want cessation of an activity. They fight to get it IF Necessary.

And, they need to be able to ask you for help.

The proximity stuff I do helps, but the real clincher for that is this:

NEVER let another dog push any dog out of your affection/attention.

If I am "connected" to a dog (interacting with it) I will not let ANY being push them out. I will say "enough" (like ending tug) and then invite the other one in.

If the dog doesn't believe you can "own" your space and hold the other at bay during a non emergency time ... No damn way they'll believe you can do it when shit jumps off.

I hope that makes sense.

ABSOLUTELY, thanks, Jay

Yes. This is true. The dog would be dead. I know people (not rare) that came home to dead dogs. LIterally. Depends on the breed and the individual dogs.

I do think all these "calming signals" etc are interesting if you are present. I basically just tell them to knock it off. If you are not present, the dynamics change.

I have a pit bull that is actually really good with other dogs even strange dogs (except bc's for some reason). She is a ratter around our property and her exact expression after killing vole/rat/mouse etc is "why is my little friend not playing?" and she flips it in the air another couple of times to see if it will get going again. She provides a great service here...we are in an area close to farms and fields.

The pit bull has full run of our house when we are not home. She is fabulous and very good. But everything else gets locked up and the puppy is crated in another room 2 locked doors away. People may think that is excessive...I do not care...I just do not take chances even though she gets along really well with the puppy and they are always together when I am home.

I believe all of you have found a way that works for you. I just am not at ease with dogs loose together when I am not home and am not comfortable with it. RIght now this works for me.

And the 2 males I had would not give a crap about calming looks. Just not a viable solution for those particular dogs.

Joan- I NEVER leave dogs loose unattended. I agree. Too much risk. I'm trying to say how I get dogs to where they can be at liberty while I'm there.
Also.... I don't believe my dogs "care" about the calming signals. They just know how to manipulate sequences. If the dog shakes off and they back off... They get to continue to enjoy liberty. If they don't, the mistake is "marked", and then given a time out (place). They realize it's more efficient to back up.
I don't over romanticize the idea that they are suddenly developing concern over the feelings of the other.

Candi- It teaches BOTH dogs fluency in signaling. The dog observing the signals learns to listen to them. And the dog giving them, learns that they will be listened to. This gives them more confidence, and lowers stress.
As to the particular "calming signals"..... I really try not to get too specific. I always say.... If you feel it.... Trust it. People can go into real paralysis by analysis over deciphering minutiae.
Some of my thoughts on body language:
http://nldogs.com/2012/12/12/is-language-ruining-our-ability-to-communicate/
http://nldogs.com/2013/11/18/calming-signal-or-stress-signal/

OK. Thanks for the clarification.

 Quote: Jay Jack

I'm trying to say how I get dogs to where they can be at liberty while I'm there...

If the dog shakes off and they back off, they get to continue to enjoy liberty...

If they don't, the mistake is "marked", and then given a time out (place)...

I don't over romanticize the idea that they are suddenly developing concern over the feelings of the other.

Too right, Jay -- Dogs learn what works BEST for THEM ... They do not "care" what works well for the other DOG

 Quote: Jay Jack

Candi- It teaches BOTH dogs fluency in signaling...

The dog observing the signals learns to listen to them.

And the dog giving them, learns that they will be listened to...

This gives them more confidence, and lowers stress.

ABSOLUTELY -- Less Stress -> Less Reactiveness...

 Quote: Jay Jack

As to the particular "calming signals" I really try not to get too specific: I always say, "If you feel it, trust it.

OK, and your Feelings have been Informed by YEARS of EXPERIENCE and Lots of Education on these issues, Jay -- But the OP of this thread is pretty much a Neophyte in such Matters ... I have been asking questions for Her Sake as well as my own, and I definitely appreciate your input !!!

 Quote: Jay Jack

People can go into real "paralysis by analysis" over deciphering minutiae....

Yes, let's hope that won't happen here, LOL.

 Quote: Jay Jack

Some of my thoughts on body language:

http://nldogs.com/2012/12/12/is-language-ruining-our-ability-to-communicate/

http://nldogs.com/2013/11/18/calming-signal-or-stress-signal/

Very enjoyable articles, thanks -- LOTS of "talking" (typing) to say, "Shut your Mouth", LOL...

Dogs are outstanding practitioners of Non-Verbal COMMUNICATING For Sure !!! They learn how to Transmit & Receive subtle dog-on-dog & human-on-dog MESSAGES -- However, IMHO: bossy-Demanding-PUSHY dogs (and "clueless" OR "impervious" ones) will Ignore/Over-Ride commonly understood Cessation (Calming) Signals in order to INTIMIDATE whomever they're engaging, or simply to Fulfill a Drive, until they are TAUGHT to LISTEN ... Some dogs are "quick studies" while others only learn the HARD WAY And, YES, learning to Know & Read K9 Body-Language is KEY for any owner who needs to Control Interactions between their dogs for SAFETY

GREAT discussion, thanks again, Jay !!!

Thank you all the valuable information on this - lots of info to absorb and use to help get my pack in sync. They have still been doing good on their leashes, if the puppy tries to go to gracie for licking i tell him No and redirect away. And they dont get to go out in the back yard together for play i dont think that is a good idea right now.

Just wondering, if puppy is licking gracies face, isnt that a sign of submission on his part or just been a pita? but i guess to gracie it is an annoyance so I guess it really dont matter, just curious

Edited by Candi Campbell (06/10/2015 03:30 PM)
Edit reason: Text did not Post :(

Not all dogs respond to submission behaviors from other dogs or puppies.

Most dogs respond well to puppies but from your post about your husband's efforts Gracie doesn't sound like one of those dogs.

Bob- I agree! I think MOST dogs now don't respond to those cues. That's the issue with lack of, or poor, socialization.
My goal is to try to teach them what they are. That they will deescalate the situation (due to my intervention). And, they can game the system by deescalating early. Really just like any other obedience. It's just an external cue instead of from me.
Sort of like teaching a dog to "place" at the sound of a doorbell. That sound means nothing. But you teach them that when they hear it, they should do "this".
Same thing. But, it's a visual cue.
I DO make the logical leap that they generalize and begin to understand other "calming" signals that haven't been "trained". But that is based on the idea that the language IS innate. It just has to be brought up to fluency. Or..... give them a reason to respond.
Or... at least that's the idea I've been working with.