Quote: Mike Arnold

Afternoon Bob,

Was kibitzing with a K9 patrol officer this morning, and we were talking about our GSDs. Nice guy. Good dog. The officer is the lead K9 training officer for his PD. Some interesting stories from him, not so much from me.

In truth, I wish I was as knowledgeable as you are in re the training and working with dogs.

I've learned a good deal from the exchanges on this board over the years.

One thing that has been directly and indirectly reinforced in past forum discussions here is the idea that you need consistency if you are to achieve results. That and patience.

Sam, the last mutt here, a reject from a Trooper K9 program, is and has been a challenging project. Loyal and very responsive but not a dog that will ever visit a senior citizen center or school. And he is one of my favorites of all the dogs that have come through the door. Not at all a pansy.

I've opined to my bride that when she walks him, she needs to be careful, not fall or otherwise have an accident because Sam is little likely to let anyone near her. Ah well, did I mention a work in progress?

Still and all, better than the needle he was scheduled for.

The mutts are blowing coat like crazy. Aaarrrggghhh.

AGREED, Mike, the helpful things I've learned here would fill a whole set of Encyclopedia Britannica

My personal musing on Sam's likelihood of Guarding your wife to the Death...

Better than Wild Canid behavior, where if a "leader" has an injury-sustaining accident, subordinates are likely to Kill the Alpha in such a case

OK, either too much or not enough coffee for me, LOL.

I think a dog that will actually protect isn't all that common.

MANY will put up a good threat display but the real, natural protectors are few and far between.

That threat display is 99% more then enough to do the job with the vast majority of bad guys.

Often times the dogs that wash out may very well do this but the difference is a dog that not only engages but stays in the fight even if it's getting hurt.

Often the "washouts" can be more then equal to the job and possible just didn't make it for who know how many reasons.

The bottom line is that a dog that will stand it's ground and display the aggression that is more then enough to send a bad guy packing.

I hate to use the term "gameness" because it's to often connected to dog fighting but that's also what it take to truly be a good street K9.

Even with a really top dog a person that has the grit and knowledge to hang in there and fight with the dog can often defeat the dog.

That's why a good bond and training can't be beat. It's a TEAM!

It increases the dogs willingness to "hang in there".

Yeah Bob.

Sam was destined for the needle in two days if the Trooper K9 trainer running the training couldn't find him a home.

So the story goes, the sheriff Sam was assigned to didn't like his look, American not German, and was overly zealous in his training approach. The Trooper tried to get the sheriff to get with the program but it all came to a head when the guy got abusive for the sake of being abusive and Sam put a stop to it.

The sheriff left the program and Sam was scheduled for a needle if another role for him couldn't be found. The Trooper saw good qualities in Sam and worked hard to find him a home, even kenneling him on his own dime.

I happened upon the Trooper two days before the needle schedule, and after talking to him, decided I needed another 'rescue.' The Trooper was none too fond of the sheriff's actions and didn't seem to hold anything against Sam.

Anyway, Sam will probably always be a work in progress but all and all he is part of the pack. Just got to be more mindful of him. Ain't a big deal.

So much enthusiasm and energy. He totes and runs with a heavy chunk of log around the back yard like it was nothing. He is one strong mutt. He responds to my commands promptly, and that is enough for me.

Hi Mike! Thanks for your great detailed answer, which is very helpful for me. I am - basically - on the same page as you what refers to your "drop dead" commands, but I have by far not reached your level yet. My dogs have quite good stays (sit, down, stand, lying on the side), I can even go out of sight. But I know, I will have to go on working on increasing the time and gradually the distractions.

I'm also using the long line, but until now only within our Yard. Though more for practicing a recall than for stays. What you write about your game turns me awfully on! Sounds awesome! But one thing about it confuses me: Some trainers say, we should never call a dog out of a stay from far, but always return to him to release. Is this only meant for the beginner level? Once the stay is really solid, is it then justified to begin with this game? I'm already fond of it before even having tried, lol, but I'm unsure if I should. What would your criteria be to give green light for starting?

About barking: I also let the dog bark for a while. Then I give the "quiet" command, which only works during the session. If I want to train it in real life situations I have to train with one dog alone. But it is crazy, then they normally don't bark, even if people are here. I have to give her the command "bark", which is for me insuficient, because I want my dogs to stop barking, when something in real life is exciting, enerving or alerting them.

I've tried it with letting my husband or a friend hit on a door or clapping hands or other things (but without voice). But the dogs just look for a moment a bit bewildered and then don't bother any more. They can not see the noise producer, but seem immediately to realize that there is nothing to be worried about. Probably they smell the person.

Your "enough" is very logical. I have the "quiet", the "leave it", the "stop" (followed by a hand signal) to make them stand still immediately when running towards me or some object. I think it would be easier to limit all this on one single command, as you do. Do you think, this would be too complicated, now they're already used to the others? But in the long run it would probably simplify things.

The "No" they understand and follow it, but it's a question of the level of the distraction. A fleeing squirrel? - "No!" - Dog stops?!! Unimaginabel for me till now. Here people let hens, cocks, chicks wander about. My dogs don't react much any more (but if they were off-line???. Yesterday a stray caught a hen and killed her. I had quite a lot of trouble to hold my Pit back, engage her with other things and leave.

"My mutts are more in the companion realm than really highly trained." This is my goal too. But to reach all that stuff which makes a dog be a really well behaved one, can be damned difficult, dependent on the individual.


By the way: I estimate Bob very much as an experienced trainer and as a person on the whole. My question if it was likely that my Pits and my Lab-Mix would attack an intruder I asked to Duane, because she just had written about this topic and because I've already recieved many good advices from her and knows certainly much more about dogs than I.

But this didn't mean I wouldn't want to know, what Bob thinks about it. How could I? And he has already explained his opinion about this. I've got the same impression, but for me it's just an impression, not coming out of experience.

I'm just unsure. Also Duane could be right. I personnaly would prefer to have all 4 dogs in the kennel at night. But my husband is convinced that they would attack and thus protect us. So one of them is free to go wherever she likes within the yard and to commit every nonsense she likes. So my supervision and consistency are gone.

Thanks again for answering!

 Quote: Bob Scott

Often times the dogs that wash out may very well do this but the difference is a dog that not only engages but stays in the fight even if it's getting hurt.

I hate to use the term "gameness" because it's to often connected to dog fighting but that's also what it take to truly be a good street K9.

Even with a really top dog a person that has the grit and knowledge to hang in there and fight with the dog can often defeat the dog.

That's why a good bond and training can't be beat. It's a TEAM!

It increases the dogs willingness to "hang in there"

Some ASIDES from an amateur Pet owner:

One of my intact male Basenjis (a primitive semi-feral breed in their native African habitat) from back in the '70s was dog-aggressive & had TONS of Fight Drive toward other male K9s -- He would go Over or Through any barrier in order to attack loose rivals if they came onto our property ... Seems only GSD and Dobermans lived in the neighborhood, so they always Out-Weighed Him by a good 50 POUNDS, but being a Basenji he invariably Believed he was Winning the battle, even when his opponent had him by the THROAT on his BACK

"Top Dead Game" of course, is NOT just a pit-fighting term -- As I know you definitely understand, it has traditionally been a HIGHLY valuable trait in the Terrier Breeds, and any "earth dogs" including Dachshunds that go-to-ground after vicious vermin, or open-field Coursing Sighthounds that personally dispatch their quarry (including wolves) long before any handlers ever catch up to them ... Doesn't mean most of these dogs would ever be suited to PSD street work, however, though Airedales used to do Military & Police Patrol Duty way back when.

Many pet dogs such as Corgis and other "guardy" types WITHOUT any PPD training whatsoever, have lost their lives over the centuries while Protecting their Owners property or person -- They are clearly disadvantaged by SIZE but never outmatched in GAMENESS !!!

Why not rotate which dog you have loose in the yard?

Candi said

""Top Dead Game" of course, is NOT just a pit-fighting term -- As I know you definitely understand, it has traditionally been a HIGHLY valuable trait in the Terrier Breeds, and any "earth dogs" including Dachshunds that go-to-ground after vicious vermin, or open-field Coursing Sighthounds that personally dispatch their quarry (including wolves) long before any handlers ever catch up to them ... Doesn't mean most of these dogs would ever be suited to PSD street work, however, though Airedales used to do Military & Police Patrol Duty way back when."

I retired one of my Border Terriers, Rags from earth work because of that term.

He killed two raccoons in the ground that were half again as big as him and he took horrible beatings.

That wasn't my idea of hunting with a dog and the reason I went to hunting with a JRT, Pete. They are actually a baying dog in the ground and he hunted for numerous seasons and took only one nip in the face.

 Quote: Bob Scott

Why not rotate which dog you have loose in the yard?

Bob, we do rotate. But I doubt it makes sense. I still don't really believe the loose one would protect us. She will only be strolling about and disregard all the rules I'm trying to teach her.

Christina,

And I thought I typed a whole bunch. Whew!

My first and foremost drop dead command is NO. Easy to say and there is no flexibility of meaning.

I use a long line for all kinds of command situations such as NO, DOWN, COME. A long line gives you long arms.

I use multiple dog games. It seems to me dogs can watch and learn from one another, though I am probably wrong. Too, I am lazy and it is easier to work with multiple dogs when it comes to time available. It seems to work for me and the mutts, and it may even go to reinforcing the pack mentality, and my role there in. Lots of trainers, lots of approaches, lots of techniques. Gotta pick a path and not be afraid to change paths.

Beginners have a lot to learn and that's the truth. There is not one size that fits all.

If you play a game, the object of the game should be training and or reinforcing training. Success comes with objectives, patience, time and consistency. The appropriate criteria for starting is starting.

I've never found it necessary to train a bark. Stopping barking is another matter.

First a command compliance, then a command and gesture or sound, then a gesture or sound. Takes time. In the first instance, you have to have a dog's attention.

The only thing one of my mutts has to worry about is ignoring me.

I don't use ENOUGH to stop a dog from running to or from me or toward a road or child or whatever. I use it as a catch all to redirect the dog's behavior. It is my DO SOMETHING ELSE command.

NO means NO. It is not a suggestion in my world. I'll leave it like that.

Training with goals in mind, and training to those goals, over time and with consistency yields results. I don't want to leave the impression that rewards and corrections are not part of the equation. Boundaries are important to me. The dogs are familiarized with the boundaries. I am the alpha and they are the pack. I reward good behavior, I train to ends, and I correct when necessary.

Bob is to be esteemed.

I have no doubt in my military mind that at least one of the mutts in this house would take an assertively jaundiced view of an intruder. Then too, you have to be nuts to enter a house with three GSDs. I don't train to have a dog attack or be assertive but mine seem to be alert, to alert, and to be a willing to be assertive. Enough for me.

In so far as I do not kennel my mutts, I won't venture any opinions.

I wouldn't leave any one or all of my mutts running free in the fenced in yard over night as a means of protection. I really don't care about anything outside of the house. Inside the house is a completely different kettle of fish. I'd like to think I can protect the house. The dogs will alert me, and I can do the rest, I think.

I think I addressed most of your post.

Whew.

Got to go to the front door. I presume someone is in the yard, given the voices of the mutts. And they really voice up when cued by the doorbell.

Well said Mike!

I use "quit" as you use enough.

"NO" means what your doing is absolutely not acceptable.

I use a guttural "AHHHH" the same way Cesar M uses his "SSSS"....and I was using mine probably before CM was born.