First of all Thanks Ed, for inviting me to speak up for Ulf. The fact that you connect my (and Dottie S.'s) name to him, reveals your
intimacy with all the gossip and rumors that aleways circulate around people who have
accomplished much, quietly and for REAL, while everyone else chews the fat. Having been in the dog-world for over 30 years, that is hardly a surprise. Much of the animosity towards Ulf seems to spring from jealousy and resentment. Some "experts" lost their "Tending" students to him, those GSD herding folk who had talked about running a HGH, (with the usual factions ending up fighting each other) immediately put him down. Nothing came of it till Ulf arrived. He said when there were enough people ready to compete he would try to set it up, and he did. Yes I know Ulf well, as an instructor and a friend. He is one of the hardest working, 'straight arrows' I know. He does not, as suggested here, toot his own horn. He simply tells it like it is
and will be the first to admit when he doesn't know something and try to find out and learn.
There are a number of so called "experts" who
gather followers by trading on 'friendship' with a single 'German Herding Master'. But ask these people how many times they've put their money where their mouth is, how often have they titled a herding dog or even competed.
<<Is the tending style of Herding useful in North America?>>
It all depends on the land usage. There is a Bellwether program that uses controlled grazing as in "tending" to keep Elec. line right-of ways clear, and also programs to clear undesireable plants that have become invasive, that use this type of grazing. It could easily be useful for keeping parkland open, as it is done in Germany as "landscape" care. Ulf leases pasture and the tending system of grazing conserves pasture and is the most efficient way of getting the most use out of limited areas.
<<Are the character traits associated with its use important to the GSD?>>
They are the same traits that v.Stephanitz
valued 100 years ago. Handler responsiveness, a strong work ethic, solid nerves, stamina, dilligence and joy in the work.
<<Why bother with a USA Herding program? Is promoting the program useful to the GSD's future as a working dog in North America?>>
Why not keep the original tradition alive?
Why not ensure that the instinct lives on.
Why not maintain one of the GSDs finest traits; versatility.
As for the "sweet" SV video...I imagine it is
part of the SV's PC program to de-emphasise the "biting" perception of the GSD, in response to the dog specific legislation that
followed the biting-tragedies in Europe.
This could be an interesting discussion forum without personal attacks by folks who don't even know the person they're attacking,
who rely on 2nd & 3rd hand nastiness. As for
the gentleman who suggested that Ulf go back to Germany...unless he's a Native American, I
suggest he's hardly in a position to tell anyone where to go.

<<Is the tending style of Herding useful in North America?>>

Generally speaking, no. The HGH style herding is in this country as much a dog sport as any other sport such as SchH, agility or whatever else. There is no real life application either. However, I think the HGH style herding is a good tool for evaluation of breed worthiness of a GSD. You see when you train a GSD for the HGH title whether are not the dog has work ethic, is courageous, is a team worker, is diligent, obedient and independent etc. The idea behind an HGH title and a SchH title is the same.

<< Why bother with a USA Herding program? >>

Again, USA actually doesn’t have a herding program. USA now supports the herding, the by-laws have been changed at the last GB meeting (the yearly SchH trial can now be substituted with an HGH trial) and I was asked to write about the training of herding dogs for Schutzhund USA magazine. That’s about it. I don’t think any one has to worry that USA changes to a GSD breed organization or even herding organization. I am sure it will remain an organization primarily for the sport of SchH.
===========================
Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
===========================

Ulf,
Thank You for your answers to some of my questions. "Dorit" implied my questions were a personal attack based on third hand knowledge. They were not, they were simply questions impacted only by my concerns about the direction of the GSD in America and USA's direction as well as my personal observations.
I know nothing about the tending style of work (and don't plan on any personal inviolvement in it.....though born a farmer I don't plan on taking up any of the family traditions in that area <vbg> ) but have a strong desire to maintain a working GSD.
When one looks at a line of GSD's for tending sheep have these dogs traditionally been incorporated into the lines known as "working" lines we all recognize as Bundesseiger participants, those dogs that I would look for as Police Service Dogs? Was Uwe Kirchental from lines kniown as herding animals? What would using an individual from herding lineage provide to a blood line known for serious protection work if any thing in regards to breeding?

I wasn't going to contribute but since dorit saw fit to namelessly name others in her post, just in case I'm one of the namelessly-named, I'll address her personal comments in the order of their appearance.

First -- speaking for myself only -- I harbor no jealousy towards ulf. He has nothing and does nothing I want that I don't already have and/or already do myself.

Second -- you might want to consider that much of the animosity towards ulf that you speak of may very well spring from his own attitude toward others -- no more & no less.

Third -- as far as the "experts" who lost their "tending" students to ulf immediately putting him down -- isn't that a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? Losing students isn't a one way street.

Fourth -- as far as no one putting on a HGH before ulf came -- of course they didn't -- that's why they brought ulf here to help them do it -- to help them learn to train the HGH way so they could learn to better train and to teach and to set up a HGH program. It didn't happen tho', did it? But the blame IMO lies every bit as much on ulf's doorstep as it does on others'.

Fifth -- as far ulf being "one of the hardest working straight arrows" you know -- does that mean you know harder working bent arrows?

Sixth -- as far as ulf not tooting his own horn goes -- all I can say is that you must be stone deaf.

Seventh -- as far as ulf "simply telling it like it is" -- I wish that were "simply" so.

And, finally -- as one of the nameless so-called "experts" described as "gathering followers by trading on 'friendship' with a single German Herding Master" -- let me answer your question of how many times I've put my money where my mouth is: (1) all the times I paid ulf money for "lessons" when he first came here and needed our "support", as he called it, which many of us gave because we wanted to try to have a good HGH program here; and, (2) by having (Shaefer Meister) Manfred Heyne here 2+ weeks a year for 3 years (1997-2000) and by making him publicly available FREE/NO CHARGE to anyone who wanted to come and spend as much time with him as they wanted -- he was my guest, at my expense and happily so -- as payment for all that he FREELY taught me over the years; and (3) countless other times which I'm sure also go unappreciated because they probably didn't line anyone's pockets.

Now, as to how often I have titled a herding dog or even competed -- NONE, ZERO, ZILCH! Of course, the obvious question is "Why?". So by all means let me answer: (1) because I'd be a fool to throw good money after bad as far as the only existing American HGH is concerned; (2) because the AKC C Course is nothing I have even a remote interest in participating in; and, (3) because I don't need to trial to prove to myself or to others that my dogs can herd -- and herd quite well as some poor misguided souls who have actually been here recently can tell you. Oh yes, I forgot ;-)) -- working my dogs on my own sheep on my own 130 acres plus neighboring farms is no test of herding ability compared to HGH trialing at ulf's. To that little "toot" I reply:

So where does ulf and his HGH students train? (answer: at ulf's facility).

On what sheep do ulf and his students train? (answer: on ulf's sheep).

On what trial course do ulf and his students trial and title their dogs? (answer: on ulf's trial course).

Now, let me see -- ulf and his students train & trial on ulf's sheep at ulf's training facility on the trial course that ulf sets up there. So -- what are ulf and his students doing any differently from what I do here other than only working their dogs maybe 2-4 hours a week compared to me working my dogs 42-56 hours a week (6-8 hours a day every day).

I'm SO sick of ulf & company's self-serving comments & twisting of facts -- yet the same ones keep coming and coming and coming just like the Energizer Bunny.

Ellen Nickelsberg

Ellen Nickelsberg said:

<< my dogs can herd -- and herd quite well as some poor misguided souls who have actually been here recently can tell you. >>

I'm one of those poor souls <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
And I consider myself blessed to have been able to spend so much time with someone as sharing and as knowledgeable as Ellen.

Yep, Ellen's GSDs can herd very well. It's amazing what can be accomplished with the right genetics and a patient, talented trainer. I've seen "hobby" herding or "dogsport" herding (as Ulf calls HGH), but never had an opportunity to learn so much about the real McCoy... real herding. I don't think one will typically see in dogsports the demonstrations of independent working ability, ability to respond to varied situations, and all day (day after day) focus on the work that real herding entails.

Laura Sanborn
laura@xul.com

Kevin asked some interesting questions:

<< Is the tending style of Herding useful in North America? Are the character traits associated with its use important to the GSD? >>

Consider what Max von Stephanitz said about that:

"The dogs that are bred by our shepherds are indeed a fountain of rejuvenation for our race, from which it must satisfy its needs again and again in order to remain vigorous."

Kevin also asked:

<< When one looks at a line of GSD's for tending sheep have these dogs traditionally been incorporated into the lines known as "working" lines we all recognize as Bundesseiger participants, those dogs that I would look for as Police Service Dogs? Was Uwe Kirchental from lines known as herding animals? >>

Uwe Kirschental's dam was indeed from Karl Fueller's line of herding GSDs. Uwe and his brother Uran show up in many working line GSD pedigrees. Uwe and Uran were both BSP participants, and they produced 13 and 8 BSP participants, respectively.

<< What would using an individual from herding lineage provide to a blood line known for serious protection work if any thing in regards to breeding? >>

If you pick from the right herding lines, you might just get some very serious protection ability. Uwe and Uran Kirschental are examples of what the herding lines can produce. Or consider the example of Master Shepherd Manfred Heyne's herding GSD Nikko. Herr Heyne took Nikko to a local SchH club to demonstrate how he'd do in the Schutzhund "courage test". Nikko knocked the helper over and flattened him.
http://www.german-shepherdherding.com/herding.htm
I've wondered what it is about the genetics of a good herding GSD that might enable this. Certainly, to maintain authority over a flock of hundreds of obstinate sheep, courage and good nerves are required. But I also wonder if it may have something to do with the fact that the sheep that herding GSDs grip are faster moving targets, targets that are trying to evade the dog, as compared to a SchH helper's sleeve that does not move as fast. Does this require the herding GSD to make faster contact, thus favoring in the selection process a dog with greater ability to throw the helper/decoy/badguy off his feet? Just a guess. FYI: Nikko is the sire and grandsire of Ellen Nickelsberg's dogs.

BTW, only one dog at the recent USA North American SchH3 championship flattened the helper (on the back transport) and that dog wasn't a GSD.

And Ed, I for one really like your HGH herding trial tape. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Beats the heck out of the official SV-sponsored ReiVision tapes, the soundtracks of which are mostly elevator music.

Laura Sanborn
laura@xul.com

I would also like to comment on Kevins question about the value of herding bloodlines.

If you love GSD's and want to get goose bumps, go to Germany and watch Karl Fullers dogs run when they herd sheep. Maybe running is not the right word - floating would be a better description.

I have never seen GSD's cover the kind of ground as I did on the days in the field with Karl. I can only say that it was economy of motion.

So in answer to the Kevins qquestion, I think that we should be looking at good herding stock to improve confirmation and not these silly show dogs.

Karls dogs can run 50 miles in a day and he doesn't let them stop to drink water. I will guarantee that every single American Bloodline Breed Champions would break down if they tried to keep up with Karls dogs.

<<"Dorit" implied my questions were a personal attack based on third hand knowledge.>>

Not at all. In fact, she meant that your questions could now be the basis for a decent discussion instead of personal remarks .

<<Was Uwe Kirchental from lines kniown as herding animals?>>

Yes, Karl Fueller was the breeder.

<<What would using an individual from herding lineage provide to a blood line known for serious protection work if any thing in regards to breeding?>>

That would be a question of how one would define serious protection work. I hear the phrase quite often but often enough it's just sport. If my dogs (vom Quasliner Moor, based on vom Dolderbrunnen and von der Paarquelle) would be tested by Police officers in order to select one for their work - I would not know if they would be civil enough, I don't know if there would be enough fight drive. I am sure there are many dogs that suit the police better. The ability to bite is one of the traits that doesn't come first when I select a stud dog or select a pup I keep. For sport reasons my dogs have plenty prey drive and show the little defense that's needed too, they match easily dogs that were particularly bred for SchH.

Generally speaking, I believe it is fair to say that a good herding GSD is a quite balanced dog - everything there and rather decent but no extremes (which means no extreme bite work either).

===========================
Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
===========================

<<yet the same ones keep coming and coming and coming just like the Energizer Bunny.>>

Yep, they do, I agree completely. This year with our fifth annual HGH herding competition on October 13th and possibly 14th. Dieter Petzold will judge while Karl Fueller will tend his sheep that he can leave. We have competitors from NJ, NY, MA, CT and CA. BTW, not at all just my students. Anyway, why don’t you enter, Ellen? According to your description your dog must be a wonderful herder. Why not put an HGH title on him? That should be easy anyway, shouldn’t it? Well, you are on the mailing list anyway and you will receive all the info necessary in due time. We hope to see you and your dog one day.

===========================
Ulf Kintzel
White Clover Sheep Farm
PH: (973) 875-7427
Email: mailto:ulf@nac.net
Web Page: http://www.users.nac.net/ulf<br />===========================

Ellen wrote: <<...since dorit saw fit to namelessly name others in her post, just in case I'm one of the namelessly-named, I'll address her personal comments in the order of their appearance.>>
I specifically did not name names, and was speaking "in general" terms to make a point, and because it's bad manners to name names if you don't know if a person is on the list to respond. Actually I was not referring to you, but, since you felt targeted all I can say is "Qui s'excuse, s'accuse." I stick to my opinion about Ulf, his qualities and accomplishments. You are certainly entitled to your own opinions. I am not defending Ulf...just saying how I see him and that my experiences with him have all been positive. But I am always surprised at the violence of feelings that Ulf's name seems to bring up. My impression is that he is certainly not interested in challenging or threatening the positions of people with whom he is not involved, or stepping on their toes.
By the way (is it John?) I did not intend to give the impression that I thought your questions were in any way attacking Ulf. I'm sorry if you read it that way. I simply meant to answer them from my own perspective of the possible usage of the HGH style tending in this country. It is certainly possible for anyone with land and sheep enough to support that system, and the desire, to work that way.
I believe Ellen is in that position.