I was a bit worried about the growling at first also, but she is very confident in all situations so I don't think it is a "nerves" issue. For example, she pulled down a 2'x8' piece of plywood (used temporarily for a blockade) on herself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> She got up and ran about 8', turned around and calmly walked up to it and sniffed it... no signs of stress afterward. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When I asked the breeder about the growling, he thought it was "frustration of prey"?? She also growls when I keep the rag-on-string away from her (it's NOT easy - she seems to have very high prey drive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> )

I'd be very interested in hearing the thoughts of experienced trainers on the growling issue. Thanks!

Joy, I didn't see your post until after I posted mine. Should I be discouraging this behavior at 16 weeks?

I would be very surprised if this was a "nerves" issue. She is rarely startled and when she is, she immediately investigates without any shyness.

She is very different from my American show line male Boxer (16 months). He would never growl when play fighting and (unfortunately) he is pretty much a bag of nerves.

I plan to train her in Schutzhund and have a very good trainer nearby (Randy Rhodes - Karmen Byrd trains there also). I've taken her out to the Schutzhund field a few times and she had a blast watching the other dogs train. She even handled the unexpected gun shots well (my mistake, I was making prey with her behind a blind and didn't realize the gun was out).

Dunno how you would *discourage* growling w/out increasing stress on the pup. Hopefully we have some Boxer folks here. If you are working w/good trainers, let them be your guides. It's hard to evaluate via keyboard.

I did not mean to get this topic started under this heading <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> !! It is probably not the right place for it.

Joy, thanks for your input...that is what I had heard and been told by a couple of other trainers. I just remember when I got my first working GSD being concerned that he did NOT growl during tug play and other forms of working. I was very quickly corrected by the breeder..and my dog was the most even tempered dog I have ever owned. He would show his protectiveness when needed but was very sweet to everyone if he knew I was comfortable in whatever the situation. He really picked up on that..if I let workmen in the house for something he would be quiet and watchful until I gave him the okay and then he would grab a toy and try to get the people to play with him. If I never let him know that it was okay he would not approach them..just stand between me and them or off to the side a little bit just watching. I really liked that..made me feel very secure. I feel like this pup will be similar in nature.
As to the growling, the breeder that I got this pup from told me with her dogs she has a rule...if a dog growls while playing with a certain toy that toy is put up and they don't get it again...is that too strict a rule to follow? Like I said my pup does not growl while playing with us or any toy...I have made the mistake of letting my other two dogs guard the toy they happen to have at the time and not let the other dogs get near it...this pup is totally different. He is willing to share toys, food, us or whatever. I am now having to change some of my rules on these things so no one gets hurt. I will not make that same mistake again!!
Again, thanks for the advise...

Jordan

I would never put up with this for a second. This is a dominance behavior and if you don't want a real problem later I would stop it right now. It is rare to see this in a pup this young. There are 2 ways for you to handle this. Stop all prey work and don't allow the dog to touch you, crate them if necessary for any infraction. This dog needs to understand now that this is not acceptable. Once this behavior stops then go back to prey work.

The other option in would be to meet force with force. Hang her and go from there. It should only take a few times and she will learn that this is not acceptable with you. If you go this way you have to win every confrontation. This would be the last resort if at all possible. My preferance would be to wait until the dog is older for this.

The idea that this type of behavior is allowed at that level could create a problem later when dominance and rank issues raise their ugly head. This is much different than what Jerri is talking about. Often protective breeds and retrievers are mouthy and take comfort in holding on to a body part. Usually gently unless they forget their strength. They grow out of it.

The Boxer we protection trained was fairly vocal also.

Richard, thanks for the advice. I believe you may be right about this being a dominance issue. I think I've been deluding myself that females are much less likely to have strong rank drive. She was noticeably more independent and confident than her other littermates and much more aggressive chasing the rag too. She is also very social.

Richard, was the Boxer you trained from working lines? There are so few Schutzhund Boxers in the States, yet they do quite well in Germany.

Jordan,

He was from a combination line. The dogs were shown in the U.S., but were more of a throw back in style and type. Solid dogs selected for working abilities. He was an exellent worker and very dominant also. I like the boxers and it is so hard to find them that have sound temperaments anymore. This dog was from about 15 years ago.

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Originally posted by Jordan:
I've got a similar situation with my pup (approaching 16 weeks), Pets4me. She inevitably decides at some point in a play/short hangout session that she wants to fight. She comes hard at me and takes as big a bite as she can from any body part (accept the face). She sounds very serious (growling) and I cannot distract her with toys while she's in this mode. She will regrip/counter for a bigger bite... ouch those puppy teeth hurt!! Has anyone seen this behavior in their GSD's? I don't know if this is breed related? My pup is a German working bloodline Boxer.

Yes. I see this behavior among GSD puppies of the same, or close to the same, age -- either litter mates or in socializing play groups of same-age puppies. It is what puppies do to test boundaries of acceptable pack social behaviors. They test all kinds of innate behaviors on each other usually in the form of play. When the biting/rough-housing behavior gets too hard, the puppy getting too rough either gets retaliated against (corrected) in kind or by the playmate leaving (no more play). Puppies learn all kinds of behavioral limits this way if allowed to play & socialize together in groups.

Puppies without access to littermates or same-age playmates tend to test their boundaries of behavior on you or older dogs in the household. If you have ever watched mama or papa dogs deal with their youngsters, you would see how they tolerate and/or correct these behaviors. They don't take them personally or make a big deal out of them -- they engage in play and/or tolerate the puppy testing behavior to a point and then they end the interaction when they have had enough. They end it by asserting their authority and/or leaving the little pest and ignoring him. They don't respond to puppy testing play & behavior with the same force, correction or punishment that they would inflict on another adult.

Puppies test boundaries of behavior to learn. How you respond to their "questions" will have a lasting effect on them for their whole lives. I would imagine this is not breed-specific (limited to GSDs only) but pretty much the same for any breed.

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If this is not unusual, when should I start discouraging the behavior. Her grip is getting much stronger... or my skin is getting much softer.

You can start working to shape this behavior into more socially acceptable forms as soon as you want -- IMO. Just do it in a way that is constructive -- positive as opposed to negative. BTW -- at 16 weeks (4 mos.) puppies start losing their baby teeth and their mouths get quite tender & sore. This helps limit the biting behavior naturally and teaches them to modify their bite. It is also a time when puppies get "sensitive" both physically (mouth hurts) & emotionally (don't understand why what used to feel good, ie. biting, doesn't any more).

As far as growling goes -- here is where you really need to "read" your pup. Pups can growl for a variety of reasons including out of a feeling of determination (maybe a precursor to fight drive when they get older).

You say: "The only thing I can do to distract her - besides putting her in her crate - is to whisper her name. If I do this, she stops, licks my face (as if to say "we're just having fun, right?") and then wants to fight again in a short time. She has been doing this since I got her at 7.5 weeks"

This leads me to believe that the growling is not a dominance issue in this case -- but you have to be the final judge. Just keep in mind that if you treat the growlong like a dominance issue when it isn't, you risk turning it into one and then you have a problem that you didn't need to have. --JMO.

Let me offer an example of growling out of determination. I test my puppies, when I can, up to 12 weeks old on lambs -- the test is described in detail in my article THE LARGE FLOCK HERDING DOG: Puppy Selection & Foundation Building which is on my web site as is this excerpt from it:

"The best prospective large flock herding puppy I have ever seen tested would immediately jump up on a large ram-lamb because it couldn't reach the top of the lamb's neck without standing on its hind legs and with its front feet on the lamb's back take the lamb by the top of the neck with a full mouth grip. The lamb would immediately start to buck and toss itself around lifting the puppy off all four feet swinging it around 180 degrees at a time and then it would turn sharply into the puppy which was still gripping the top of the lamb's neck and sort of get the puppy turned almost upside down while it still held on to the lamb. At this point you could hear the puppy give a good grrrrrrowl while holding on until it gradually worked its way right side up again. The puppy never let go of its grip."

In the above case the puppy growls out of total determination to hang onto that big ram lamb -- not out of stress or out of defense. This was growling out of pure prey drive and a serious determination to hold onto that prey come hell or high water -- NO dominance, NO aggression, NO defense -- just pure prey.

If boxers are at all related to the bulldog breeds, it would probably have some genetic propensity to bite & hold onto a bull's nose & NOT LET GO. If this is so (and I don't know if it is or not), maybe boxers are more inclined to growl easily out of determination when holding on in prey. Bull baiting may also require a dog that initiates the bite (prey) more than a dog that is more reactive to prey behavior. Again -- just a guess.

Jordan goes on to say:

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When I asked the breeder about the growling, he thought it was "frustration of prey"?? She also growls when I keep the rag-on-string away from her (it's NOT easy - she seems to have very high prey drive.)

This would be my impression from what you wrote too -- especially if this breed is genetically more inclined to want to initiate prey behavior more than only react to it.

Richard -- I don't mean to contradict your opinion and I have to defer to your experience with Boxers. I'm just not convinced from what I read that the growling is dominance motivated in this case. -- JMO.

Ellen,

It is not the growling that concerns me. I worry less about growling than everybody else does. If the growling is play/prey based it is just a vocalization in play. If it is stress then I am concerned about it not as a domnance issue, but because of the stress the dog is under. As the dog becomes more comfortable this goes away.

What concerns me is the level and ferocity of the attack, and the attempt to make up when mildly rebuked, but further pressed offensive when met with a normal reaction. It concerns me with dogs that may or will have dominance/rank issues later to have taught them how to be more effective in fighting with people. When the issue comes up they will use that against you.

Ellen, thank you for such a thorough analysis! This has been a particularly confusing issue for me. The various pieces of the puzzle just didn't seem to form a coherent picture (for me). {I was aware growling could be a sign of weak nerves, yet she is so confident in everything she does and encounters. I also mistakenly assumed that a female is not able - or likely? - to have rank issues} I guess you could say I'm rather green. :rolleyes:

It seems that if I treat this as a limits testing issue, and pay attention for clues suggesting dominance, I cannot go wrong? I can stop playing with her, give her an unemotional correction, and/or put her in her crate as Richard suggested. Something has to give - other than my skin - and it seems this is a reasonable way to deal with this issue. The only reason I did not do something about this behavior earlier is that I was afraid it might reduce her prey drive.


Ellen, you are correct; the Boxer is a bull breed. They are direct descendents of a German dog called the Bullenbeizer (bull biter) with only one significant outcross (a small Mastiff type dog).