If you have seen some bad dogs which were crosses, then this have nothing to do with that they were crosses. This is more likely the cause of bad breedingprogramm. If there are a lot of preydogs in KNPV it´s because that is wanted and breeded for. If you want PSDs then breed to dogs which have the character to do this. In my opinion workingdogs should be breed for servicework, then we wouldn´t have so much weaknerved preydogs. If mals are going to be used to improve the GSD, then only the ones with excellent health and best character should be used.

I agree. My point is the Mals are not a cure all. The best dog should be used, but again I am not sure that we have to cross-breeds to achieve a service dog, but it is an intresting concept. As far as health, alot of this I believe is diet and Vac. related. I have seen Mals with skin problems just as the GSD. What I will agree is that the hip problems don't seem to be as much as of a problem as with the GSD. But again research is pointing towards diet as the culprit. I do not know. Look at Ed's program; high number of dogs produced, low hip problems. However while his numbers are impressive, I am not sure that they are accurate. I am not sure that the incidence of hip problems is not highter then claimed, as I do not think everyone that has a Leerburg dog, has had it x-rayed. But without knowing that (maybe he will comment) I would think that if the dogs were severly inflicted with hip problems this would come to the owners attention and have the dog x-rayed. My point is he has achieved a good working dog, without cross-breeding. It is possiable.

Originally posted by Michael Taylor:
Jerry, where in Germany are they crossing the two breeds with good results other then the Police dog program? This is intresting.
. Michael, my information was that the cross of the GSD and the Mal is only in regard to Police Dog Breedings. Sorry if I gave that impression. I will give my friends in Germany an e-mail today and get some more info on this for you.

It does not take a brain doctor to figure out that the Mal is becoming a favorite.

Even within Germany the dogs that are attracting attention in SCH are the Malinois.

The RCI Championships are just finished in most individual countries in Europe. Spain was dominated at their RCI Championship by Mals and France just posted their RCI results. Out of the top 25 dogs at the French Championship 19 were Malinois along with a Major shift in the remaining 6 GSD who made the grade being that not one of the GSD was was from the traditional French GSD Working Kennel.

Here are the French RCI Chasmpionship Results

Position-Dogs' Name-Breed-Sex-Handler-Region-Selectif Points-Cup Points-TotalPoints

1 NICO du Domaine Rossini BBM M ROIG André Rhône Alpes 587 285 872

2 OEDIPE des Loups Mutins BBM M BRUNA Jean Aquitaine 579 291 870

3 JO des Loups Mutins BBM M JOAQUIN Jean Aquitaine 575 285 860

4 OUI'LY du Vieux Marronnier BBM M GUEVEL Gilbert Oise-Picardie 568 283 851

5 LEO III des loups Mutins BBM M LAPLACE Patrice Aquitaine 570 279 849

6 MACK II des Loups Mutins BBM M GUIBERT Olivier Aquitaine 564 282 846

7 PIRATE des Loups Mutins BBM M DEPENWEILER Stéphane Aquitaine 561 283 844

8 OLEK de Valsory BA M GALKA Francis Rhône Alpes 561 281 842

9 ORESSE du Creux Thatcher BBM F LAGGOUNE Amarouche Rhône Alpes 563 279 842

10 XANDO du Boscaille BBM M VENZA Joseph Rhône Alpes 567 274 841

11 NASH de la Gemmellerie BBM M RENAULT Maurice Bretagne 567 269 836

12 NEVIE de Valsory BA F WATZKY Alain Alsace 558 273 831

13 NANTS du Clos de Richaumoine BBM M BENESTON Foulques Pays de Loire 565 263 828

14 MIRA Ty Bleiz Nevez BBM F STROPOLI Alphonse Rhône Alpes 556 269 825

15 NINJA BBM M POUPION Emmanuel Rhône Alpes 555 269 824

16 NANTZ de las Pradellos BA M LIABASTRE André C. Aquitaine 549 266 815

17 MAO du Bois Français BA M GAILLETON Françoise Rhône Alpes 545 267 812

18 OSLO du Clos de Richaumoine BBM M PETIT Frédérique Aquitaine 557 254 811

19 JITAN du Clos du Richaumoine BBM M TARON Jean Pays de Loire 544 260 804

20 MAIKE des Ducs de la fontaine BBM M WERDING Roger Est 549 254 803

21 LOOK de Valsory BA M LOPEZ Michèle Rhône Alpes 549 252 801

22 ONDO du Séjour de la petite Saule BBM M BOUR Jacques Est 553 244 797

23 PUNK des Tommyknockers BBM M RIBERT Nicole Côte d'Azur 545 248 793

24 OLSO de Valsory BA M N'GUYEN Dominique Rhône Alpes 569 199 768

25 MARLOW des Trois Aiguières BBM M CAILLEAU Martine Bourgogne 568 197 765

Jerry that would be great, to have some more info. I agree that the Mals are attracting more attetion in the sport. It is apparent in every country. Even in America. Top sport people are going to the Mals. They are easier to train to get good results. You have a better chance at doing well with them then you do with the GSD. I am A GSD person but it is the sad truth. The working foke are going Mal, and show people are into the GSD. Even the police Dept. that were anti-mal are going back as we are seeing a better quality Mal in recent years. More info on the breed is available. I think that DVG in America will be dominated by the Mals in a few more years. ALot of the winners are Mals. Most GSD can't beat the top Mals.

Michael,

You could get a good GSD suited for servicework, but if the genepool of really strong GSDs are small, then some new blood could be used to build up a more healthy strong GSD. Remember, we have only breed purebreed dogs for about 100 years, it´s clear that breeders have done many things wrong in their breedingprogramms during this time, therefore all the health and temperament problems in many workingbreeds today. If breeders started to follows the basic rules for breeding that nature does, "survival of the fittest", and genetic variation, then we should have a whole different situation today in many breeds.

When it comes to hipdysplasia this disease in GSDs I strongly belives is a structural issue, and also breedings done in the past with dogs which was dysplastic. I guess hipdysplasia isn´t present in wolves, so something breeders must have done wrong. In racing greyhounds hipdysplasia is very rare, so it´s possible to breed workingdogs with a low rate of this disease.

I think the problem with few good workindogs left are more problematic in many other breeds than the in the GSD. Dobes,rotties and giants are hard to find today, also the genepool of really strong dobes and rotties are small, maybe some crosses between workingdobes and rotties could be done to increase the genepool of these breeds, but to suggest such a thing is like saying a bad word in a church for kennelclubs and many breeders.

Michael, my information was that the cross of the GSD and the Mal is only in regard to Police Dog Breedings. Sorry if I gave that impression. I will give my friends in Germany an e-mail today and get some more info on this for you.

It is in NRW at the police dog school in Stukkenbrock. Partly this is due to the fact they stopped breeding GSD's and have had some brood bitches that are GSD.
The reasons are simple. $$$$$$, when you have to justify a program among the bean counters a program that producers the greatest numbers of functional police service dogs will prevail over a breed specific program. The police started with two populations of dogs. KNPV bred Mals (unregistered critters of unknown origin) and GSD's that were bred in accordance with SV regulations. The first generations saw a large number of Mals with problems with the environment (slick floors, gunfire etc.) they were able to conquer this for the most part. The GSD's were only bred to the best stud dogs available (no genetic problems and great working ability).
When it came right down to it, the cost of breeding and producing more pSD's was cheaper in the unregistered Mals so they prevailed among budgetary constraints.
This is the genral scetch that has been given to me over the last few years of talking with people involved over a cold one.
I have also heard among some that the numbers are inflated to show that the program is worthwhile and that there is a significant difference between the reported numbers and those dogs that are still on the street down the line.
I will ask much more specific questions this fall, and I will try to report back what is going on after being there and seeing first hand what they are doing. I suspect a big part of their success will have come from the fact that the pups are farmed out to experienced people in the rearing of working dogs, police officers with a real stake in the program since this is where their next dog will come from.

Just going back to that list of French RCI Championship winners.

Of the 6 GSD that made the Top 25 , 4 of the GSD were from the same French kennel, VALSORY.

Roxxanna Allan, the treasurer of the North American Ringsport Association has a Valsory GSD.

To help out those trying to read and understand the results. After the dogs name you will see BBM (Malinois) or BA (GSD) next will be the sex M/F

Hasen't a couple of Dutch working GSD kennels already outcrossed to Mals? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.users.bigpond.com/kampk9/index.htm

Reading what Kevin said, I kinda figured money had to play a role in the crosses. IT will be intresting to see what transpirses with this system in breeding.
I think the time has come though for people that love a working GSD to evalulate what is what, and start breeding working bloodlines otherwise, the Mals will be the service dogs of the future.

There are several serious veterans who have posted here about the rise and falls of working breeds, and how this takes place while discussing the differences with the Malinois.

Many people here have been in this field for twenty-to-thirty years and have known more hands on knowledge than most people BEFORE the internet. Do people on this board feel that things could turn for the better now that we have a tool to share and discuss issues and ideas on working breeds?

I myself have learned an extraordinary amount just in two months. With the knowledge available do you think this will really help the other breeds keep their genetic working ability because of the information to the common dog enthusiast? Sometimes I think that many people haven’t just acted out their mistakes through greed and selfishness, but also ignorance. Do you think this board and the internet can and will help curve this error?