UH - sorry to have posted that twice!

VanCamp wrote: "There is/was also zero established tradition for working dogs in this country so as dogs were imported in the past to be bred here. . .like the Dobermann or GSD, the abilities were lost over time because there was no organized Schutzhund here, or other similar sports till the middle 1970s. Without that tool for breeding American breeders were left to their own devices. . .which rarely proved positive for the working breeds".

Don't forget imports to the US then were all show champions that had proved to have week nerves and no working ability, which the Germans sold to the US at very high prices because of their show titles and would have never been used for breeding in Germany. Some of those breeders, if alive, must still be rolling on the floor laughing their ass out at the POS they sold for a fortune.

Pauline,

Just to explain you the difference. I have left my Dobermann female for three days at a friends house. He has a Dobermann female from entirely European show lines. My female comes from working (police) lines.

He was surprised at how gentle my bitch was at home (way more than his female) and the fact that even his 13 year old daugther could walk her on the street. That she was not afraid of any stranger. That she's bigger and stronger (within the standard) than his.

If you add the fact that my bitch will ALWAYS bite ANY helper on ANY ground (known or unknown, sand, grass, slippery tiles, you name it she works there), that she tracks more focused and calm... even though his female can make 100 points in obedience, he's asking me to breed mine so he can have a puppy from her.

That's the difference between show and work.

Can you have both? Yes. There are dogs who have it all. But they're hard to find, and they won't make a BIS and probably not win the working championships, but they are excellent on the show ring and get over 270 points in Schutzhund.

If you try to make a dog that will win the BIS, you have to compete with people who breed only for that, and worrying about other traits is going to be a handicap that will make you loose. You'll always be behind them. The solution is simple: don't breed for the BIS. Breed for an excellent working dog that looks good or excellent if possible.

That's MHO,
Pedro.

Pedro,
check your PMs
Erin

Pauline your not alone. I am a novice in the world of working dogs but Im learning. My first protection breed of dog was and is a Doberman. I am a victim of if I knew then what I know now syndrom. Not that Im at all disappointed with my dog. I just know now that I would have had to have spent a lot more money and looked around a lot more to find a good working line dobe. Im still not sure everything my dog can achieve. I figure that the better Im trained the better he will be and Im still working on the first part of that. In my early experiences in the world of dog training I have encountered probably about 20 or so people that know everything about training dogs and not one of them would have probably agreed with the other. I really pay close attention to the people who seem to be objective. I think I will do the best I can with the Grendel (my dog) and we will both learn from our mistakes and our failures. When it comes time for another dog I will be much better educated. Special note though it is my plan to make dog training my new profession so hopefully I will have the opportunity to train many dogs. Just thought you might want hear another persons plan with there not so perfectly breed dogs. Good luck.

Just another view of the show/working dogs. I have a retired champion Border Terrier who could work, and I have a Working JRT who is good looking enough to show. The problem with the show only dogs (terriers) is the AKC judges in the ring have know idea of the working abilities of the dogs they are looking at. Most of the terriers in the show ring are supposed to show a lot of attitude. Guess how they do that? The judges face off the dogs with one another to see if they will spar. If they don't, the judge wont give them a second look because they don't have the correct attitude <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> . The Working Terrier judges, on the other hand, won't put up with dogs who are trying to go off on one another in the ring. That attitude has nothing to do with true terrier work. At the Working shows, the dogs need signed working certificates in order to show in the true working classes. There are still some GREAT looking terriers that can work, but only in working shows. The breed is still "new" enough to AKC that some of their Champion dogs MIGHT be good workers, but the most of the owners don't know, and don't care. AKC has size restrictions that already eliminate the best sized dogs for working here in the States. Thats how working dogs loose their working abilities. They are being bred for a look.
I think there are some fantastic looking Working GSDs out there,(Todd's dogs come to mind). Could they win at a AKC show? I sure hope not .

In addition to being an ACK Champion, My old Border has also won Best Colored Terrier in 3 Working Terrier Shows. Bragging...YOU BET.

Pedro there were many people that imported dogs for other reasons besides showing them. Not all were show champions. There have been working dogs imported in this country since, at least in my family, 1922. And I would argue that a hella lot of the show/working dogs imported before 1965 were capable working dogs as well.

Just no organized sport to continue to test working stock.

Of course there were bad dogs brought over as well, but there were a number of good ones.

Pauline:

What I suggest is that you get involved in some sort of formal training program with your dog. Prior to that, get a couple of Ed's tapes on OB, raising a puppy - the 1st year (or whatever it's called), the drive and focus tape, etc. Then take some structured classes, join a good club and set a goal for you and your dog. For instance, try and get a CGC or a CD or CDX on your dog, see how far you get in 6 months, then a year, etc. Take a look at tracking and see if both you and your dog enjoy it, then give it a try and see how far you get. I would not advocate you trying to stimulate any aggressive or protection behavior tendancies in your puppy. I remember your earlier post when you were having nerve/fear biting/dominance questions displayed by your puppy. I'm willing to bet that your puppy has weak nerves and I wouldn't suggest that you go down that route with your puppy. Also, I don't think you would be able to handle or control a fully grown dominate PP type of dog without more experience.

Pauline,

Probably the same advice as for any dog: love him, explore his abilities, accept his limitations and see where it gets you. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

As a rather silly take on the show vs working debate, we present:

That's Just Not Chowder!

"Hi, this is Joe Harrow and welcome ladies and gentlement to the 100th New England Chowder Show. As you all know I'm sure, chowder nourished generations of our ancestors as they won a living from the sea and we're most proud to be keeping up this sustaining tradition.
With me now is this year's winner in the clam chowder division, Mrs. Eunice Digglesby, who won with ther 'Boston Fog Dreams VIII.' Mrs. Digglesby, tell us exactly what your chowder won on."

"Why thank you, young man. Yes, my chowder was praised especially for the perfect uniformity of the all natural fresh-farmed clams I used, its luminescent whitness 'like alabaster' Judge Brower called it, its pourability and most of all, its perfect see-fresh tang that they said really evoked the best of the tradition. I've worked fifteen years in my kitchen and I'm very glad to see all that hard work finally pay off."

"Mmm, sounds great <Mrs. Digglesby bows head modestly> So, can I taste it?"

"Most certainly not! What do you take us for? Chowder-heads? We support the best tradition of the New England fishermen. Those chowder-heads do terrible things. Some of them actually add pepper to their chowders. Can you imagine it, marring the wholesome whiteness of the chowder? It's so ugly. They don't pay attention to the uniformity of the ingredients they use. And they even *mix* their shellfish."

"Hi! I'm Joe Harrow and today I'm interviewing Mr. Samuel Fogg of Practical Chowder, who advocates the eating of chowder. Mr Fogg, some people argue that your chowders are not truly representative of the sorts that nourished New England fishermen. What do you have to say to that?"

"Nonsense. You'll notice that the chowder show people don't actually eat their stuff. That's because they're anywhere from insipid to disgusting. Some of them add stuff like white paint and gelatin just to get that whiteness and pourability."

"But your chowders don't have a sea-fresh tang."

"Would you really want to eat something that smells of raw fish and sewage?"

From Julie Nevitt, new chowder owner: "Dear Mr. Harrow, I write to object to the biased coverage you gave the last show. As the proud owner one gallon of prime traditional chowder that I bought from the most reputable chowder show, I can assure you that not only do I have an aesthetically pleasing chowder that is a fine addition to my kitchen, but it can nourish me should I ever require it to."

Naturally, the less said about the misguided people who try for the show chowder that's actually edible, the better. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Dei, incorrigible chowderhead.

PS: Fortunately, most people still know that food is for eating.

PPS: On the off-hand chance that this has amused you, this may be freely reposted so long as you credit it.

LOL!! Extrememly amusing! Thanks! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />