This is a huge problem in dog training and being able to make good progress in your dog's training will need to eventually boil down to trusting the trainer you have picked . This isn't easy due to the many bad trainers out there with fancy gimiks to draw you in .

Everyone even novices have an opinion on how their dog should be trained . If it differs from the trainer I often see this bringing the training to a stand still .

As 1 of 3 Asssistant Trainers in our unit we ourselves have come to an agreement because we often have different ideas on how to address some training issues . We discuss a certain dogs issues and give our ideas on how to fix it . The head trainer after hearing us out makes the final descision and we all get behind it 100% whatever it is . Otherwise we have found out we waste alot of time argueing and shortchange the training if we don't agree with it .

What I have found is most ideas given in our discussions will get the dog where we want to be but it is about just choosing the 1 that will work the fastest with less conflict .

New K9 Handlers with some knowledge in dog training I have found are not necessarily the best students . Some can't get past their opinion on how to train there dog and don't put much effort into what you want them to do . They will usually say it's not working after only a short time .

The good Handlers I have found are the ones that can get past their disagreement with the training and put in a good effort to pull it off successfully no matter what .

This is what I usaully say at the start of a new class . " For those of you who have some experience training dogs ; You may not agree with what we ask you to do sometimes , but we ask that you trust in our experience and success in training to go along with it anyways otherwise we will just get bogged down in argueing . "

It's tough finding a good trainer . If you find one you have problems with shop around but if you find you are constantly disagreeing with your trainers and getting nowhere , the problem may be you .

Jim, you hit the nail on the head with regards to myself finding a local trainer that i trust. The problem is definitely me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, but........ it's super-tough to find a trainer that generally looks at dog training from the basic standpoint of most of the professionals on this forum, then again, i don't trust many people. I learn through my mistakes and really like training my dogs, and as pets we have no timetable for learning new exercises, unlike the dogs you train that need to get out there and go to work. All i was trying to convey was that there's a lot more bogus trainers out there than true professionals,
AL

Al,

I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone , just trying to paint a bigger picture about dog training . You make a good point that a trainer should be able to explain to you why they are having you train a certain way . That should be part of the all around training program . Training the owner to train their dog .

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Reiner,
We're talking for the most part about *beginner* handler's here - they're not "75% of the "equation", the quality of the instruction they recieve is.

I'm sorry, you're the one that talking about a reality check here, but it doesn't sound like you're very familar with what goes on in many obedience classes.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Will, we all sink with our assumptions, and generalizations at some time, this is also human nature. So, nothing personal, you went there first, i just want to set the record straight on one issues raised here. You for instance assumed that I don’t know what goes on in many obedience classes. Yes there are very bad instructors out there, but this is true for any training field, nevertheless, that’s a very small potion, and they don’t last long either.

Good Referrals sell training in this business. Well I had my own training academy just for the record, with some four instructors. We trained many dogs during this time, for private, security, police, competition and commercial use. Yes I have first hand experience thank you.

The one thing that I found with some new people, wanting to train a dog for the first time, is this, they read too much, and then think they know it all. They have formed an informed opinion; I call it tacit knowledge – referring to newbie’s knowledge here. However it takes a very different kind of knowledge in my opinion to actually train a dog with to its full potential and beyond that, called explicit knowledge. You only gain this knowledge from observation, and then application, from forming the concept and then getting the foreseeable result – called mastering training. You only get good at it by doing it.

This is my beef, too many newbie’s have this great sense of I am informed, and yes you are – but with tacit knowledge. Some people have the good intellect to apply what they learn from tacit knowledge, video’s yes, but by doing so they are forming the new required explicit knowledge, and they don’t do it with negative energy, by questioning it.

They stick to the recipe, the ritual the concept to train the dog the basics, hell you have to be an idiot to get this wrong, my three year old, came to class every weekend. I gave her a Dutch hound for her birthday, and she started “training” – repeating the rituals – next to the field, and trained this dog all by her self, she got him to sit and beg – yes.

Will. It is 75% the human components interaction with the medium, be it a video or a book, trainer, or instructor, for crying out load the dog’s brain is as big as a walnut – how much intelligence do you expect. The handler has a choice in the medium of choice for instruction, and how he or she applies it, yes, right here, how we apply it, that’s where the distinction comes in – just my opinion.

You can have the best dog and method of instruction in the world, but if the handler believes that a dog will only last 15 minutes in the back of his head in training, hay man – it will take him a life time to get the dog to sit. So who is to blame here, the medium of instruction or the handler with this tacit knowledge, as it is understood – this is my point – training skills are explicit knowledge – as we get to understand it – by doing it , and not by criticizing it.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Oh and Two thumbs up for Jim's post - he acctually knows what i have seen, and experianced. Newbys take note!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Oh and I missed this little “treat”, if a dog has serious aggression issues we charge more, its only “fair” –Ha Ha. If I had to apply this “fair” principle in practice here in the police academy, or at my school, i would have been laughed off the field or be stinking rich by now. None of which happened. We advertised for this type of dog, for police work, to get donations. We only work with “seriously aggressive” dogs in the Police Patrol dog section. Getting a bite now and then was considered part and parcel of the job. (The better you get the less you got bitten). We applied the same principle at our academy.

In all seriousness, and I am just pulling the Mickey out of it, please nothing personal intended, but any trainer worth his salt will charge a flat rate for any course and deliver the goods no matter how big or small the suckers hart is in the fight. I have never disqualified a dog because of serious aggression, ( a hard bite, and good fight) as long as I was confident the handler could deal with it. If not, it’s the fault of the ground work that went in to the dogs prepping, I will not have passed a person to go onto aggression building or attack work if they cant work together, if the handler cant control the dog, they stayed in that class until they could worked it out.

This should be the exception; any one seriously trained should be able to pass with flying colors, no matter in which method.

Oh and the other little treat, that just proves my point, we only train attack dogs in the police and military with “chokers” brow John – so the arrogant trainer as you had put it with forty years some experience - was just passing on the unique training??? Very good training I might add, but then again you will never know. Just goes to show, how one sided perceptions can become due to mainstream beliefs based on tacit knowledge only, that we swallow like mothers milk, for the truth.; this is the core of all serious conflict, in dog training circles imo, we just wont see the other ones uniqueness as strength, its bad for business...so play it down…

True or Not?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Hi All,

Just thought I'd come back in on this one with my tacit knowledge. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I've now found a good trainer (went to more classes the other night to watch them in action) and while she may be a bit of a tree hugger she seems to know what she is doing, AND, more importantly for me, does NOT force the use certain training aids etc. which might benefit her pocket.

Having watched her at work she has instilled some confidence in me that there are actually some people in the dog training world (classes I'm on about here) who know what they are doing.

Reinier, You make some very good points and for the most part I agree with what you say (lol), but......

Don't insult me by suggesting that I should do what I'm told and not question other peoples training methods. I have the ability to make "informed" decisions based on what I believe to be the correct course of action at any given time.

As for recipe training, I have no real issue with it but how do you form your own opinions/experiences if you just copy someone else's work??

The bottom line is this. In this game no two dogs are the same so why should those dogs go through training sessions that are exactly the same? Don't get me wrong I'm not talking about consistency here, I'm just talking about making it more interesting for youself as well as the dog, work on the dogs best drives.

Can you imagine having 5 dogs to train and you go throught the very same training process for each dog 5 times a day? You would soon become worn down/unmotivated and this would show through in your results.

Where does this tacit knowledge come from? Is it perhaps from Professionals with explicit knowledge?

I accept that there are many people who simply do not have the ability to use implied knowledge properly but the fact is that there are some smart ass, well educated, annoying people who do know how to apply knowledge and who can learn more from questioning instead of behaving like a herd animal.

If you don't question, how do you learn? Your training a dog not to question but YOU also want to train the handler not to question is that what I'm reading?

Cheers

John

p.s. If I'm talking garbage then let me know

 Quote:

Just goes to show, how one sided perceptions can become due to mainstream beliefs based on tacit knowledge only, that we swallow like mothers milk, for the truth.; this is the core of all serious conflict, in dog training circles imo, we just wont see the other ones uniqueness as strength, its bad for business...so play it down…

True or Not?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

So it's OK for us to swallow your advice on what to do without question but not to use "tacit" knowledge received from the masses whos combined knowledge may just be more than yours (maybe just though eh Reinier??)

You sound exactly like this guy I'm talking about. A know it all who really knows nothing but how to bully into submission

true or not?

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We only work with “seriously aggressive” dogs in the Police Patrol dog section.

Dumbass! Who in their right mind would let a dog like this loose on the public?

Put 3 trainers in a room n the only thing 2 of them will agree on is that the 3rd guy is doing it wrong.

I've dealt with trainers that are condescending and make you feel stupid, I won't train with them, I don't care how much experience these people have, I don't care how good they are, I don't care if their methods are the best in the world - I still have my right to decline training with them, and I also still have my rights to disagree with their training methods! My boy is doing frikkin AWESOME the last few weeks of training, he's biting hard, he's going in for defensive bites with no hesitation, he's not coming off the bite n I'm super proud of him, then I go to this trainer that's been doing Schutzhund for a long time n trains with all these trainers with "explicit knowledge", n she starts wanting to go back to throwing a tug on a leash n bouncing it around with a big presa canario standing behind my dog barking at him, then tells me "your dog isn't focusing on the equipment enough, your dog is dropping the equipment when you're running circles with the dog after he's won the toy"... firstly, my dog was in a new place he's never been to, he was biting really good on the tug when she did a "run by" and tugging hard, he was losing focus because there was a pitbull lookin dog going crazy 15ft behind him so he kept wanting to turn around n make sure he wasn't gonna get eaten, n I really couldn't care less if a personal protection dog won't prance around in a circle with their prize, I'd rather he drop the damn thing n go back on the decoy like he's been doing since his first bite. As long as he bites good on the sleeve, I don't care what he does with the sleeve after it's slipped.

That's my "tacit opinion"... am I saying she doesn't know how to train dogs? Not at all, I am sure she can put out some very good dogs and has trained some great dogs in the past. Am I saying her training methods are wrong? Not really, she is training in the same methods that all these Schutzhund trainers and seminars have taught her to train. Do I agree that these are the right methods to use on MY dog? No, I don't, because I've been working with my dog for my dog's entire life, I've seen what he is capable of, she hasn't, I've seen what he will and won't do, she hasn't, I've tried all the methods people give me before, it doesn't work on my dog. But, he's still biting great, he's still improving in every training session I have when I work him the way I think he should be worked with my "tacit knowledge", and I really don't think he will benefit one bit from going back to bumper work and trying to run him around in a circle to give him a bite that sport judges will oooh and ahhh over.

My point is, that everyone has their own training methods and philosophies, there's a stupid amount of experienced trainers in this country with "explicit knowledge", and I bet most of them don't agree with eachother. Lets say you have 3 trainers, 2 experienced trainers with "explicit" knowledge, and a novice with "tacit knowledge" as you put it... the novice trainer may very well be on the right track and have all the right ideas and methods and experienced trainer #1 thinks the novice is gonna be an awesome trainer with a little experience, but trainer #2 might think the novice is a complete fool unwilling to listen to new training ideas blablabla because the novice doesn't agree with #2's philosophies. This doesn't make the novice stupid, the novice made an informed decision using logic and common sense that the training he feels is best for his dog is the right way to train, trainer #1 validates this, trainer #2 is so set in his ways and so high up on his pedistool that he won't take 2 minutes to consider that maybe this other training method could also work just as well, maybe even better than, his own training methods. But some people are more intent on arguing their point than trying to see someone elses point.

John, LOL, I really enjoyed all your replies, authority issues hay, <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I can clearly see that you have a good sense of humor about you, and at the same time you seem sincere and very serious about what it is you would like to achieve. Nothing wrong with what you raised in my book.- but don’t call names, not nice…we are all adults here.

I assure you my intentions were honest, I never meant to insult you by saying, “do as you are told”, no – I am sometimes a little too forward for my own good forgive me, but we have nothing to prove any more, been their done that, and I don’t sugar coat it either – however, reasoning to a large extent corrupted the dog training tradition. There is nothing new or revolutionary about any ones training out there. They all learned from the Masses, as you put it, and formed their own concept – however only after they mastered the basics.

Somehow it has to stop at some point, and contrary to belief their is nothing common about common sense, on the contrary it is not very common at all when it comes to training dogs. The point was raising your voice, and your opinions off the field, like Jim explained, reach consensus with the trainer and raise your expectations and concerns and then decide on a course of action. Then you have too trust in his experience to pull it off.

Ha ha, yes then your “tacit” knowledge will become your explicit knowledge, again I am not preaching from the mount here, it’s a take it or leave it deal – let me just explain this, all the theory is good, but only when you apply it for your self, by your self, under guidance, do you get the, call it the WOW moments in training that, this really works, or that oh shoot it doesn’t. I can’t really put it in words.

There is no fun in training dogs, the fun is enjoying the learning curve, and watching the progression, and enjoying the results of “hard repetitive labor” …..

But good luck… i mean it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />