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Maybe I'll just move to Montana <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> .

Doesn't work. We have moronic owners here as well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> When I used to live in another town in MT where it was pretty hippie dippie with off lead dogs all over the place, I would just carry a cattle prod and yell to the owner when I saw their loose dog approaching that I would use it unless they called off their dog. Did not make me popular and I got plenty of "you can't do that" but man, did they grab their dogs in a hurry <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Now I just don't bother walking my dogs in areas where there will be loose dogs - which means I essentially take my dogs out to privately owned land. I guess you could say at least we have lots of land in MT unlike NJ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

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I guess I am feeling a little alone here, I am not so concerned about a loose dog attacking mine, as I have been working with mine for dog aggression, I worry about the other dog running up to her and her starting a rukus. I have her on an e-collar, and she is now looking to me for direction when we are walking and she sees another dog, I reward her with lots of praise when she focuses on me now instead of the other dog....but if they come a runnin right up, I can't take the chance, she gets tossed behind me and I work the situation.....is there anyone else with my concern?

I can totally understand your concern. My Malinois and my Aussie mix are fine off leash and usually ignore or playfully greet other dogs. My husky/Rott mix named Buck came to me in October as a foster and I still have him. I can't let him off leash on the trails around town since 1) he's a husky with pretty poor recall and 2) he's dog aggressive/assertive with dogs he doesn't know. I am very frustrated that I will have him on a prong collar and leash on the trails and there are numerous people I meet time and time again with other dog aggressive dogs (a huge female chow mix, a 100+ lbs shepherd/hound mix, and a GSD/wolfdog, just for a few examples) that do NOT belong off leash, but they are anyways. When I see other people with their dogs approach, I move off to the side of the trail and put Buck in a down stay. Most other dogs see him as "boring" and not challenging and run on by. Then there are the others, like the huge female chow mix (probably well over 100+ lbs) who, even though he is in a calm submissive posture, will still walk up to him stiff legged and staring to elicit a challenge. She'll walk *right up* to him within like 2 feet and he'll be at the point where he can't take it and they'll lunge at each other. I of course correct him hard with the prong collar and get him back in the down stay, but then I hear the idiot owner (who is of course about 50 yards away) saying something like "Oh, did he start that?" UGH! This happened a few weeks ago and I was just too irritated to even say anything to him. I'm liking that he looks to me to see if he should do anything, but I need to be more proactive so he doesn't feel like he's got to react. I need to get my alpha bitch snarl/roar on and bollocks to the other idiot owners. Maybe they should just keep their damn dog on a leash, even a longer line. It's like, ack, know the limitations of your dogs!!

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Maybe I'll just move to Montana <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> .

Now I just don't bother walking my dogs in areas where there will be loose dogs - which means I essentially take my dogs out to privately owned land. I guess you could say at least we have lots of land in MT unlike NJ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ingrid, I am sick with envy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ! Your strolls must be fantastic!

I'm not saying I love that loose dogs are in the world and running up to us.

What I am saying, is that from my experience with 3 different dogs, is that the VAST majority of these dogs are just coming up to say hey. And to shoot, beat or kick them would be just a bit of an over reaction on my part.

Are there mean and vicious dogs out there? ABSOLUTELY. Would I beat the crap and kill them if they were going after my dogs? With no hesitation. But how many of these dogs have we actually run into in the past 13 years? Uh, well, to be honest, let me think................... maybe two?

It's my responsibility to train/socialize and have my dog's throwing out ONLY calming signals to any oncoming dog. It's MY responsibility to pay attention on a walk to locate human owners for these dogs so I can have a heads up if it is a loose vicious dog that slipped a lead, or Fluffy that just slipped out when the neighbor kids came over.

When in doubt, I call my dogs back and stand between them and the oncoming dog to try to judge the other dog's intentions. I have NEVER found that cranking my dogs up and allowing them to be out of control has improved the situation.

Hey, my dog's haven't been in fights with any of the many many dogs we have met, on and off leash in the PA/NJ/NY area in YEARS. So it's all well and good for everyone to say my way doesn't work, when it has, for me. It really really has.

Unless I keep my dogs in my yard with a 6 foot fence their entire life, they will meet other dogs. Because my relatives have dogs, my friends have dogs, I go hiking and meet people with dogs, we meet dogs at training and classes. My dogs do not play and love all these dogs, but they behave and act appropriately.

And for those who would like to learn and educate themselves so they can also become better at reading their dogs and others, I say, GOOD FOR YOU! The video/DVD Calming Signals is a good place to start. http://www.canis.no/rugaas/index.php

And for those who KNOW all strange dogs are 'bad', well keep being afraid every time you go out, because you will meet more off leash dogs in your life. I choose to learn, prepare/train my dogs, and love going out and maybe making new friends with new dogs.

And I like the world I live in, and the dogs that fill it.

Judy Gola, I LOVE your story because it fits MY points exactly!

Where was the blood and guts a TRUE DOG FIGHT brings?

There was none.

Because YOU were prepared and read the oncoming dogs body language, YOU took control, and the other dog REALIZED you were in control and ran off. Along with the fact that you have clearly done a good job socializing your dog so they let you take control of the situation and did NOT add to the problem by becoming another out of control dog at the scene. This is EXACTLY what I would have done and how my dogs would have behaved.

I don't want people to think I go around in a world full of happy dogs. I've met up with plenty of dogs like the one you mentioned. But MY POINT is that though it was exciting, and inappropriate behavior from the other dog, and the homeowners shouldn't have allowed the dog out, NO DAMAGE WAS DONE. By you on the oncoming dog, or it on you or your dog. And THAT is the kind of dog/dog meeting I am more familiar with. And why using a whip, gun, whatever is generally a bit more than needed for these circumstances.

I'll stick to my guns.. So to speak.. when I say.. "Prevention is better that cure".

Where I come from, the majority of people (that own dogs) I've met, are irresponsible or clueless... Unless the dog is on leash and I know the temperment of the dog, it's kept away from me and my dog. I don't really mind people with aggressive dogs that are kept on leash.
Remember one misjudgement can be very expensive (and I'm not talking about $$$$$).

I think that everyone has his/her way of handling this situation. I'm sure that every responsible person will do anything to make sure nothing happens to their pet..

Well Jenn, it's been my experience that the overwhelming majority of people I meet on my walks who are the cause of the problem whether their dog(s) is leashed or not sound just like you.

They all say their dog's friendly, socialized, yada, yada and then WHAM...one dog or another snaps, snarls, growls, postures. So for every person that says what you say, I now know to stay far away.

It seems too from your post that you are one of those that unleash your dogs. You must be something special to be able to contain 3 dogs at once, all while measuring, judging and determining correctly 100% of the time strange dogs that come out of nowhere or from 100 yards away, etc.

Maybe all of Ed's writings on dog fights are overkill too. Maybe Ed is dramatizing the chances of a problem when two strange dogs meet. I always thought he sounded pretty sensible. I'm just trying to learn here. Maybe you know more than Ed.

jenn,
you've just been lucky, is all. read this thread carefully and think through all the possible situations and maybe you will be better prepared when your luck runs out.

i can read other dogs, too. i know exactly what sort of dog--size, gender, body language--is going to cause a problem with my dog (regardless of what the owner says), and when i see those dogs coming, i either walk away, get out of the way, tell the owner to leash their dog NOW (it is the law), or i am ready with a ski pole to beat the hell out of that dog if he gets in our space. i had to threaten a wolf-dog that had it in for my dog not long ago, and the owner just kept running, completely oblivious to the four legged hazard she had abdicated responsibility for.

yes, my dog was in a down-stay behind me. yes he is well socialized and has great social skills. yes, i own the rugaas video and book and think they are great.

none of this changes the fact that there are dogs out there that will have it in for your dog, and do not care what you understand about dog behavior or management. my dog pushes some other dogs' buttons just by being alive. he's a giant intact male. who has been attacked, completely unprovoked, three times by dogs running loose. by some miracle he still loves other dogs, but his great social skills did not save him those three times.

and you cannot control all situations. the last attack happened when ben was about a year and a half old. we were out on national forest. a woman's two friendly, playful dogs were having a nice romp with ben. out of nowhere, a dog-aggressive hound tore into the group and slashed ben's face. i had to beat him off with a stick. none of us saw this other dog coming. the stupid owner should never have had him off a leash. she knew he was dog aggressive and not trained.

you cannot possibly account for all other people and their dogs with what you do with your dogs. if you are smart you will carry some kind of a deterrent, and you will keep your dogs leashed where the law requires it.

i don't go to places where dogs are allowed to run loose anymore. if i want to go with my dog off-leash, i go to less-traveled areas, midday and midweek. i keep my wits about me, and i carry a big stick.

and btw, i live in montana. off-leash dogs are just as bad a problem here as anywhere.

My hope for Jenn is she never comes across a driven dog that shows no signs of dog aggression before they proceed to engage, they are out there and if you try and read their body language you won't be able to, and by then it will be too late. I will take my female as an example, before I started to re-train this dog, she would happliy greet another dog, no fur standing on end, tail a waggin, and all she was doing was waiting for the other dog to get close enough to engage......one incident can ruin a dog, why take a chance on strange animals...but good luck to you, I hope you never encounter what some on this forum already have, and make no mistake about it MANY people that own dogs of all breeds don't have a clue, and most those dogs don't respect their owners and won't respect you either.

I am so glad this is being discussed! My area is generally pretty good about keeping dogs on leashes but there are a few who run around loose. I have never had a plan before if a dog were to come up to Boo but now I'm thinking I better get one together so I am ready if things get tense. I can't rely on luck *all* the time.