Quote: Yuko Blum

...As for puppies getting impacted from too much bone, I guess that could happen when people follow the BARF ratios of 1/1 meat to bone (completely ridiculous if you ask me).
If people would just feed what the dog is designed to eat (what wolves eat in the wild), they would feed more meat and organs and less bones and we wouldn't hear of those problems anymore.

Ok, now this is getting very interesting I have a couple of questions: is the 1/1 ration always spoken of as meat to bone ratio or is it sometimes mentioned as bone to meat ratio? Reason I ask is cause I hear the ratio mentioned as calcium to phosporous ratio and always thought that meant bone to meat AND I hear a lot of 2/1 ratio, so I've always taken the 2/1 ratio to mean bone to meat, not meat to bone. Can you clear this up for me? I've always questioned if my pup has been getting enough calcium for his growing bones and teeth, calcium coming from bone. I'm all mixed up.

 Quote: jennifer ruzsa

Gah!!! Don't don't DON'T feed the raw in hacked up little chunks!!! That is the WORST way to feed it. Either grind it or preferably feed whole pieces. Chopping into chunks is just about begging for improper chewing and can (and has) led to choking and impactions...

Sorry! When I read "hacked up" I just assumed hacked was smashed, chopped, crushed. I apologize and will pay more attention to wording.

 Quote: RobbinMann

oh great! Now I am really scarred. I didn't think chopping them up would be worse!! GEEZ!!

Your pup is probably just fine since it was chicken necks (soft bones). Since you fed him the chopped pieces last night, check his stool this morning and you probably won't find one piece of undigested bone in it. Just feed the chicken necks whole. I chopped up the bones (once on a chicken wing) when I first fed raw too and was advised not to and never did after that, no problems. All bones ever fed since then have been digested. It's rather remarkable actually when you think about it, how amazing dogs' digestive systems are. My pup used to really gnaw on chicken wings when he was younger, now he just crunches down a few times to break up the bones, then swallows. At first this concerned me too, but checking his stool, never any bone pieces to be seen.

Robin,

1. There is plenty of time for the testicle to drop. I neutered my last malinois at 14 months b/c he was monorchid, so you have plenty of time to wait it out and allow him to mature some before having to make any decision.

2. Salmonella & E. coli: I wouldn't sweat it too much in regards to feeding raw to your dog. Use fresh ingredients and normal sanitation protocol and you should be fine.

3. Bones: I'd limit the volume and size of bones for a young pup. Maybe even grind the bony meat. As I'm sure you are aware , DO NOT cook the bones if you choose to feed them to your dog.

4. Comparing a wild wolf's life expectancy to that of a domestic dog's is a ridiculous comparison. I am a biologist, but haven't studied wolves in depth (so I could be wrong), but I doubt E. coli and/or eating raw bones has much to do with negatively influencing the life expectancy of a wild wolf.

I have fed my 2 y/o male gsd raw for 1 1/2 years and never had a problem. I use a similar "menu" to what they use here at Leerburg. I also just switched my 5 month female gsd over to raw and she is having no problems. Ecoli and salmonella are not a problem as long as the meat is fresh, if it's fresh enough for you to eat then it's ok for the dog. Also look in to feeding hearts and liver.

The numerous benefits have already been mentioned, so all I can do is agree. Ignore what your vet says, I would even look to get another one, but I wouldn't listen to what many vets have to say about nutrition. Just stick with it, and you will not regret your decision. Good luck.

 Quote: robbinmann

oh great! Now I am really scarred. I didn't think chopping them up would be worse!! GEEZ!!

Awww! Don't be scared, Robbin... Just ask yourself:

Are you afraid of feeding whole bone (including the weight bearing bone of chicken legs)? If yes, then are you willing/able to get a meat grinder and ALWAYS 100% of the time grind to a fine mince? If so, then grind on!

If you are NOT able to grind, and can somehow get your head around it that dogs not only CAN eat whole chicken carcasses, but SHOULD be eating whole chicken carcasses, then just feed in big pieces. Those are your two choices. Don't make it harder than it is.

Also avoid giving only necks and backs. This is a trap people have fallen into because necks and backs are generally cheap. Your dog needs the correct ratio of meat to bone as found in a whole animal. So either grind or give pieces of a WHOLE ANIMAL. And don't worry about whether you get the perfect ratio each day or each meal... You are striving for balance over time.

Think about it, do you confuse yourself this much over YOUR diet?! Believe me, your dog needs meat carcasses, organ meat, the odd whole fish, and some raw green tripe. All of these except the tripe can be found in the grocery store. The tripe can be found online and can be delivered. That's it. Find a raw feeding group and study it a bit. You'll see how easy it is once you embrace that there is no easier way to feed a dog raw than by giving it what it was DESIGNED to eat, sans veggies, sans grinder.

If you want to grind away, go ahead. If you want to add veggies, go ahead! Won't hurt your dog. But it complicates things unnecessarily and just recognize your dog doesn't NEED this (as long as you are feeding adequate green tripe). I think we all started where you are now. After you get lazy you tend to revert to the "prey model" way of feeding because it's easier anyway!

My 13-month old GSD has been eating raw since I got him at 3 months. I feed him in the backyard to avoid having raw meat dragged all over the house. I also have a cat I've been feeding whole, raw chicken necks to since he was 5 months old. He's almost 3 now and my vet says he "rarely sees a cat in such good shape". The cat eats inside, and sometimes drags a piece of meat or neck out of his bowl and onto the tile floor, but I just wipe the tile with Clorox Cleanup when he's done. Nobody's had salmonella, e coli, diarrhea, punctured guts or anything else. When my mother was growing up she had a GSD they would feed meat and rice. He didn't like the rice so he would shake it off the meat and then wait around the corner (they fed him outside) for birds to come get the rice. You guessed it - he caught the birds and ate them.

50 years ago the "experts" told us they knew better than mother nature and bottle-feeding our babies "scientifically developed formulas" was much better for them than breast-feeding. Better for the experts who were selling the formula, maybe, but does anyone still believe it's better for babies?

Sandy, I've seen all kinds of "ratios" thrown around.

I'd be skeptical when people advise you to follow some strict recipe or mathematical equations to feed your dogs.

The smartest and most obvious thing to do is follow the "whole prey model" and basically try to approximate what a dog would get from eating whole fresh prey. It seems logical doesn't it? Wolves eat prey, not "meaty bones".

If you don't have access to whole prey, a general idea of its composition would be about 80% meat and organs, and 20% bones.
Of course this would vary with the type of prey.

For instance, if you feed a whole rabbit, the dog will consume everything, including all the bones (a lot of fun to watch btw )
If you feed a whole deer, the dog won't eat all the bones and will leave the harder heavier ones untouched.

A good way to tell if your dog can "handle" more bone would be to watch the poop, lol.
Growing puppies will often get softer stools because they use so much more of the bones compared to an older dog. In that case, you can increase the amount of bones you feed. The drier and harder the poop is, the more bone residue (i.e "unused" bone) is being passed. If there's too much bone residue in the GI tract, yes, the dog can get impacted.

Nutrition is a pretty fluid concept and the dog will get the nutrients it needs out of its food. I don't think it really matters what your ratios are, as long as you don't go to extremes where your dog physically can't handle it. If you're feeding a lactating female, there are probably precautions to follow, but for your average healthy dog, don't worry so much!

You don't calculate "ratios" when feeding yourself or your children and they all turn out fine don't they, with normal teeth and bones?

So will your dog if you just follow your common sense.

Your body is designed to extract what it needs and leave what it doesn't from the food it gets.
The only danger is if you go to extremes, or if you use supplements. Natural unprocessed foods are fine.


I stopped the BARF ratios because my older female started throwing up bones (my puppy was fine on the same ratios because he used more of the bones). Now that they're both on the prey-model (80% meat/organs) I find that they're both doing better.
Basically I just cut out a lot of bones from the diet; I don't really calculate anymore. Just make sure that their poop doesn't get too "compact".

"For instance, if you feed a whole rabbit, the dog will consume everything, including all the bones (a lot of fun to watch btw )
If you feed a whole deer, the dog won't eat all the bones and will leave the harder heavier ones untouched."

Yup, and also mention that the dog DOES consume the rib bones, etc, of the deer. So what it CAN it consumes, but generally leaving the large weight-bearing bones. They may gnaw on them, and this is where the odd recreational bone comes in.

Robbin, if this helps, this is my personal feeding schedule, per dog:

MONDAY and FRIDAY: CHICKEN with EGG

• Half of a raw chicken
• 1/2 cup chicken organ meat (heart, gizzard, liver, etc.)
• 2 whole raw eggs, including their shells

TUESDAY and SATURDAY: FISH

• 2 whole herrings or mackerels

WEDNESDAY and SUNDAY: NON-POULTRY MEAT and GREEN TRIPE

• 1.5 - 2 pounds of non-poultry animal (i.e. rabbit, pork, beef, lamb, venison, etc.)
• 1 package (about 1 pound) of whole green tripe
• 1 cup of non-poultry organs (i.e. heart, kidney, liver)

THURSDAY: FASTING/REC BONE DAY

• 1 whole recreational beef or pork bone in the evening

See how simple it can be? The only things to really pay attention to are, giving too much LIVER can contribute to loose stools, so don't overdo it. But liver IS necessary, so give it periodically. And the only other thing is that if you're not feeding any veggie matter at all, the green tripe really is a necessity rather than a luxury. But you can feed only a little of it if you like because of the veggie matter being pre-digested the dogs use more of it than they would if you just ground up whole veggies. Another way of giving veggie matter is to use a dietary premix like Urban Wolf... But honestly the tripe is better, more natural, and the dogs love it.

you people are 'way overthinking this. i've been feeding raw for five years now, and my pup's breeder has been feeding raw for more than a decade, at least.

i started out like y'all are: worried about bones, worried about ratios, making up recipes, scheduling what is eaten on what day.

it's all a complete waste of time and energy.

feeding raw is easy, simple, and cheap, once you get over the initial hump of learning how to do it and, perhaps the biggest challenge, finding good providers of rmbs.

you don't need to have certain foods on certain days. you don't have to feed tripe. you don't have to feed veggies with meats or a certain number of days of the week.

and you certainly do not need to grind bones, not even for puppies that are weaning. in fact, it is correct, cutting or chopping the bones makes them dangerous. let the dog deal with the bones. just make sure they are raw (this means you didn't defrost them in the microwave, either).

and wolves, btw, DO eat every last scrap of a deer in the wild. i know, because i've spent time tracking them in the wild with wolf biologists. when you get to a kill site, there is NOTHING left but maybe a hair or two, and the blood on the snow. it's rather amazing.

the first thing you must do when beginning raw feeding is find out what meats are available in your area. you call every supermarket and every butcher and every meat processor in the county, and ask them what they can get you for under .99 cents/lb. you explain that you want HUMAN GRADE, non-weight bearing meaty bones: tails, necks, ribs, heads, wings. you also want organ meats: kidneys, hearts, livers. and you want these things from as many different kinds of animals as possible: turkeys, cows, pigs, chickens, lambs, rabbits, deer, elk, moose, etc. (do not feed bear or lion--trichinosis).

when you've figured out who your best provider is, order what you need by the case lot, and have the butcher cut or package everything into one-meal sizes. for example, for my mastiff, the butcher packages beef hearts as half a heart to a package, three turkey necks to a package.

chickens i feed whole or half. young fryers are usually cheap from the supermarket.

ok, put in your order, toss the stuff in the freezer, and you're done with shopping. you take out a week's worth of stuff at a time, and let it defrost in your fridge. if you forget to defrost, or run out--feed it frozen! no problem.

as for a schedule, mix it up is the only rule. if he got beef heart and half a chicken yesterday, today he'll get turkey necks and a can of mackerel. i try to once a week feed ground up veggies mixed with egg and shell and yogurt or cottage cheese and some fish oil and kelp, but as long as he's getting organ meats, the veggies aren't essential. sometimes if i'm short of meat, he'll get a bowl of cottage cheese and an egg with the shell.

i save the trimmings from the veggies we eat, and when there is enough saved to make a meal for him, then he gets a veggie meal. simple.

you can get impaction from feeding too much bone. the remedy for that is to feed more meat and/or organs. watch his stools. if they start getting too hard or he's straining, up the amount of meat, veggies, organs. if they are getting a little runny, up the bone.

same thing with how much to feed--if he looks skinny, feed more. if he's plumping up, feed less.

and worry a lot less!