The link isn't working because the period is in the link. just delete the period and refresh or re-hit go.

 Quote: Shody Lytle

The link isn't working because the period is in the link. just delete the period and refresh or re-hit go.

Fixed!

Thank you.

To the O.P.:

Sorry to have gone so far afield!

Was the pork question answered satisfactorily?

 Quote: lisa harrison

The manufacturer encourages the use of supplements to boost the nutrition, but they are not required. I have read dogs need 25%protein, 50 to 60% grain, and 25% vegetables in their diet. Those %'s are probably different for a raw diet. The manufacturer suggests adding yogurt, rice & oatmeal on occasion. They do not say to add additional calcium but it is less than 2 teaspoons a day.

That is the real beauty of a raw diet. All the nutrition is in the meat and bones! Most supplement only Fish Oil and the vit E that should go with it and it is only because most people feed commercially raised/grazed meat!

Dogs at Westminster, dogs in police work, sch. dogs, ob dogs, pet dogs, breeding dogs, hunting dogs, therapy dogs....whole gernerations of dogs, you name it...there are so many dogs in tip top shape eating zero carbs/grains, many are not eating any veggies even and not even being supplemented other than maybe what I mentioned.

Crazy eh?

 Quote:

My dog is currently getting 9oz of muscle meat (ground beef) per day. Besides her RMBs.

What are her RMB's? If they are something like skinless chicken or turkey necks I wouldn't have a problem with the pork as the meat meal.

Pork can be fatty but not all cuts are. Some dogs handle fat better than others.

I think unless the pork necks are SUPER meaty that these on top of whatever are your RMB's would be too much bone...or are you saying that these would BE the RMB's?

Anyhoo, as long as the pork is not too fatty and you are getting some edible bone and some meat, I say feed it every day for a couple of weeks if it agrees with her belly! Not like you won't be buying chicken, beef and other stuff too soon enough right? Balance over time IMHO.

PS-Pork ribletts (discussed in other threads), and pork hoc is my dog's favorite. The necks in my store are too boney and cut too small.

 Quote: lisa harrison

For additional calcium I bake egg shells and grind them to a very thin powder, then I sprinkle on their food. I also add wheat germ, flax seed oil and a liquid joint soother on top of a multivitamin I buy thru Kenic wholesale. The other mix I use is European style dog food mix. This one has barley, oats, flax and a few other ingredients.(Can't remember them all) This one you have to add veges and a protein to. I also occasionally add either rice, pasta, oatmeal, yogurt, egg, sweet potatoes, barley,carrots, green beans, peas or beets to my mix.

With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely; you're doing an awful lot of work!), you are doing about ten steps more than most true raw feeders.

First, why the cooked egg shells? Why not fresh, whole eggs? Second, why grains at all??? I wouldn't touch any food w/grain in it, intended for dogs or cats, with a ten foot pole. Adding grain to dog food, is, IMO, a huge red flag that the manufacturer does not have a good understanding of the true dietary needs of a canid. Wheat is a known common allergen, and even flax can be. Why not wild salmon oil?

Lastly, I cannot imagine that you are spending less money on food (don't forget-your time is money!) than we raw feeders are who buy in bulk and keep chest freezers in our garages. No way! I also have distributorships of a few foods/mixes, and it doesn't really help so much that I'd feed it to my dogs instead of raw. And I have 7. I think.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

 Quote: lisa harrison

For additional calcium I bake egg shells and grind them to a very thin powder, then I sprinkle on their food. I also add wheat germ, flax seed oil and a liquid joint soother on top of a multivitamin I buy thru Kenic wholesale. The other mix I use is European style dog food mix. This one has barley, oats, flax and a few other ingredients.(Can't remember them all) This one you have to add veges and a protein to. I also occasionally add either rice, pasta, oatmeal, yogurt, egg, sweet potatoes, barley,carrots, green beans, peas or beets to my mix.

With all due respect (and I mean that sincerely; you're doing an awful lot of work!), you are doing about ten steps more than most true raw feeders.

First, why the cooked egg shells? Why not fresh, whole eggs? Second, why grains at all??? I wouldn't touch any food w/grain in it, intended for dogs or cats, with a ten foot pole. Adding grain to dog food, is, IMO, a huge red flag that the manufacturer does not have a good understanding of the true dietary needs of a canid. Wheat is a known common allergen, and even flax can be. Why not wild salmon oil?

Lastly, I cannot imagine that you are spending less money on food (don't forget-your time is money!) than we raw feeders are who buy in bulk and keep chest freezers in our garages. No way! I also have distributorships of a few foods/mixes, and it doesn't really help so much that I'd feed it to my dogs instead of raw. And I have 7. I think.

Raw egg whites contain a protein called avidin, which binds up biotin, (one of the B vitamins) so that the body is unable to use it. Including too many raw eggs in a diet can cause a biotin deficiency. Cooking the eggs deactivates the avidin.

Nourishment for dogs must be drawn from a wide range of foods that contain macronutrients (protein, carbs, fiber & fat)micronutrients (vitamins & Minerals) and water. Complex carbohydrates (Grains) metabolize quickly and contain essential nutrients. The more you cook a carb, the easier it is to digest.(Of course overcooking would also rob it of nutrients.) They supply the dog with energy. Dogs need fiber and fiber is found in whole grains. Fiber slows the movement of food thru the digestive tract, so it can absorb the nutrients in the food.

I question raw because of the high potential to be contaminated with salmonella and E coli bacteria. This can pose a health threat not only to the dogs but also children & elderly with a compromised immune system. All it would take to become infected would be a lick on the face from a dog or contact with the contaminated food bowl. Organically raised meat may be more at risk for bacterial and parasitic contamination because it lacks the therapeutic additives that are used in standard farming practices.Chicken can carry salmonella and pork can carry trichinosis. Toxoplasmosis is a microscopic parasite that can contaminate beef and lamb. While a raw bone is less likely than a cooked bone to splinter and lodge in the dogs digestive tract, there is still the risk. Even grinding the bone into a powder it is still possible for dangerous splinters to be present if the bones have not been thoroughly ground. My dogs do not need as much protein in their diet because they are pets, not working dogs. Too much protein in the diet can cause stress on the immune system, kidneys and liver.

It really sounds like more work than it actually is. I would like to try raw, however it scares me because you really have to know what you are doing.I don't know anything about salmon oil. What are it's benefits?

One of the mixes that I use is a grain free mix.

Hi, Lisa,

I'm not jumping on you at all when I say that your post is loaded with facts about human digestion that have little or nothing to do with canids, as well as a few half-truths. They are all common misconceptions, so I want to clear them up on this widely-read board.

Egg whites shouldn't be fed raw without the yolk, which compensates for the loss of biotin. A "search" here would lead to many threads explaining this in detail.

The whole paragraph about grains is applicable to humans and not to dogs, with their short, fast, enzyme-based systems and their inability to produce grain-digesting enzymes such as amylase in the quantities needed to process regular grain-heavy foods. (Think of a wolf, to go back to basics, and picture him raiding the wheat field. )

If by "therapeutic additives" to non-organically raised meat you mean antibiotics, then "therapeutic" is a misplaced term.

About this statement: "Too much protein in the diet can cause stress on the immune system, kidneys and liver" ----- you'll want to read this whole thread:
http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/138632/page/0/fpart/1

It will supply you with links as well as discussion about "too much protein" for both healthy and kidney-impaired dogs.

Raw poultry does present a risk to people with immune-system challenges. They should not eat it, and dog poop should be picked up and disposed of, no matter what the dogs are fed. No one should allow their dogs to lick their mouths or their children's mouths, no matter what the dogs are fed. Dogs are scavengers; dogs eat poop; dogs lick their butts.

Dogs, OTOH, with their short fast digestion systems, are in far less danger from food pathogens; they have a quick trip from one end to the other, and that doesn't allow pathogens the time to colonize that they have in the loooooong human intestine.

Fish oil supplies long-chain Omega 3 EFAs that are lacking in modern grain-fed meat. (Flax's ALA is not converted to long-chain EFAs like DHA and EPA by dogs the way it is by humans; even humans have only about a 5-15% conversion rate.)

Again, I would urge that you read any of the books listed here:
http://www.leerburg.com/feedingdogs.htm

and/or any of these Leerburg web pages about canine nutrition:

http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/diet.htm
http://www.leerburg.com/othersources.htm

And yes, there is absolutely some risk from eating raw bones, even the right kind of RMB http://leerburg.com/feedingarawdiet.htm#RMB

There is risk in any type of diet you decide to feed. There have been hundreds of pet food recalls over the last decade -- hundreds, in fact, last year! There is salmonella-infected kibble. It goes on and on.

We all have to decide what risks we believe are acceptable as we strive to feed our dogs biologically appropriate (for dogs, not humans) food.

The diet you are giving doesn't sound bad to me. As I mentioned earlier, with a few tweaks (getting rid of all of most of that grain, for example), it could be better. But you are obviously making huge efforts to feed your dogs well, and I think you'd welcome some better information from the sources posted here.

You're in the right place if you want to learn about raw feeding, or about canine nutrition, period.

Hey Lisa,

Even if you never decide to feed raw, it is great that this came up and that you are learning about it. You already wrote a great bit on vets and their knowledge of nutrition IMHO

Even if you don't feed it, if you are a traininer you will likely come accross people who do feed it or are interested in it. Now you will know the real deal, and be able to provide them with good advice re: a raw canine diet.

Connie is our nutrition expert (lots of dog related things actually) and can answer any questions you may have if you are interested. As she pointed out there have been MANY threads on the topic over the year and many leerburg members have very successfully made the switch after learning about it here (even if they were not convinced in the begining)!

PS-there are way more pets eating a raw diet than working dogs and they can be fed pretty much in the same fashion save maybe less calories and fat in some cases.