As far as feeding boneless meat, my understanding is that you won't get the right phosphorus/calcium balance without supplements unless you include bones.

My experience with transitioning two dogs (at different times) to raw was that there was no problem at all. Lucky me! <g> In fact, one of the reasons I transitioned the first dog is that his stools were loose and green no matter what kibble I fed him. That problem stopped immediately.

The bottom line for me is akin to that expressed above by someone: no matter what you feed, pay attention to the results and adjust accordingly. So far, I like what I see with BARF.

Here's a link to an article that I feel is fair and balanced. It's not about raw meat, but about homemade diets in general. While this thread started out specifically about BARF, I think it has become generalized more to a kibble vs. homemade discussion, so here it is.
http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=2&cat=1664&articleid=672

All I can say about raw meat, is if you're not comfortable with it, then either take appropriate precautions or cook it! If you're afraid of RMBs, you can always grind them up! There is a solution to every concern about BARF that I have seen so far. As far as anectdotal evidence, I have seen far more in support than I have against.

I'm going to continue the diet, but I will certainly make sure that I'm careful about what I do and don't feed.

There are a lot of people who want to feed raw, but are afraid of the raw bones so they do grind.

I have switched 6 dogs to BARF so far. All I did cold turkey. The two adult dogs had no problems. The first puppy got some runs so I started grinding and that stopped the problem. Once her body was accustomed to the raw I slowly started adding un-ground pieces back in. It took about 10 days. 2nd puppy was the same way. 3rd and 4th puppies, the ones that were on Canidae, switched in less than a week. I do switch them to chicken at first then start adding in the veggie/meat/offal meals in small amounts are other types of bones.

The biggest changes I saw were super coats, I no longer have ANY digestive problems (in the dogs), and my old girl with PF is in remission with NO drugs (she was one of the reasons I switched to 100% raw).

Kibble is a MAN made diet! Show me the studies that say feeding kibble is scientifically better for my dogs. What better study is there than those breeders, people who have been feeding it for years ???? My vet was not very keen on my feeding this way, but she also knew that I was not going to change. Over the years, her attitude towards it has been encouraging. I am so thankful that she was open minded. Her words have been....well, I don't like the idea of feeding raw meat to dogs but I can't argue with the health of your dogs either.

You want studies...look at statistics. I first heard about raw feeding over 8 yrs. ago from a vet in Denmark. He tells of being in vet school and having 'lectures' from vets from the U.S. talking about many diseases that they had never heard of there. When questioned on it, the remarks were " wait until processed dog food comes to Denmark". At that time the majority of people fed their dogs raw food, table scraps etc. As this vet (later in his practice) spoke out openly about kibble etc he came 'under fire' from the veternary college and institution in Denmark. In fact, they 'sued' him for remarks he made on television (he had a regular 'series' of lecture on it) on diet and vaccines. He in turn asked them to prove him wrong. They couldn't and the lawsuit was dropped and they had to publicly apologize to him. (this information comes from him directly).

Vets know little about nutrition and nutritional requirements and those who are honest will tell you this. The only classes they take on the subject in school are those given by large dog food companies. I would venture to say that perhaps more are becoming more aware at this point.

Autoimmune diseases were hardly heard of years ago. We ARE paying the long term effects of feeding poor diets to our dogs every day. Is nutrition the only culprit. Course not, poor breeding practices play a part in it as well, but these diseases are seen in all breeds, crossbreeds, mutts etc. Vaccines also play an important role.

Talk to vets who have been working for over 25-35 yrs. and they will tell you the difference in thier practices. They use to deal with broken bones, accidents etc. Now, most issues are allergies and autoimmune problems.

The only people I know who have fed raw and 'gave up' on it, only fed it for a short period of time. I don't know anyone who has fed it long term that has any major problems with it and has not seen the health benefits of it. Can their be problems with switch over...sure there can. So much depends on so many other things happening. Many people go to raw when they start to have problems with their dogs. Usually it is after they have tried so many other things and so many other routes. They dogs have been pumped full of antiobiotics, vaccines, immune suppressants, poor quality food etc. The body needs time to heal and detox! One should always expect a peroid of detox! If you don't encounter it, great...an added benefit. Even with pups you are facing many things. Usually the first thing is 'rounds' of puppy vaccines. Then we often put them on heartworm, deworm them with piosens (not agianst deworming in general), and the stress of leaving littermates, new enviromement etc. Depending on the pups 'heritage' (dam/sire problems, amount of vaccines, their 'diet', having coxidiosis as pup, etc, etc) yes, you may encounter problems in the initial switch. This is where most people 'give' up...and do not take the time to work through it. There could be a multiude of things happening...but of course, it was the raw meat I gave...becasue when I went back to kibble, everything was fine. Maybe that was just a coincidence. Just imagine if it was the other way around. I fed raw to my pup and decided to try kibble and for 3 days my dog had dirrehea. What do you think would be blamed for it? Certainly not the kibble, even though there have been numerous cases of salmonella e-coli found in bags of kibble and many have been 'recalled'. I would walk away from any vet who first explanation of a problem to me was 'its the raw diet' or it's the kibble. That is a closed mind. It 'may' be true but a closed mind excludes out any other possibilities and I would not go to a vet who practices like that.


Healthy dogs with healthy immune systems do not have problems eating raw meat. BUT, if that is your only concern and the place you have had problems....by all means COOK IT! You are still way better off than feeding kibble.

I am tired of every health problem in dogs today being blamed on 'breeding'. Just like I don't beleive that every health problem is due to what the dog eats. Thyroid problems are not necessarily due to 'breedings and specific breeds'. In fact there have been studies done on this, by Dr. Jean Dodds , who states that most of the thyroid problems in dogs today are due exclusively to vaccines. I also beleive that she has published this information. (at least she said she was in process of having that done when I heard her lecture in person)

We all get to make the choice of what we are going to feed our animals based on what we know, learn , hear , expereience and beleive. I do also believe that we all make that choice with the 'best' of intentions and my hope would be to also make that choice with an open mind.

Those of us who feed raw, all fed kibble at one point. We have seen first hand the difference it has made with some specific dogs are all our dogs in general, especially those people who have fed this way long term. There is no great 'advantage' personally to feed this way, other than my dogs rarely go to the vet with any problems. It really makes no difference to me if any of you choose to switch your dogs over to raw, I have nothing invested in the switch. In fact, locally it would be the opposite! I have sent far too many people to my butcher for raw chicken necks/backs and offal etc....they are often 'out' of it when I go to purchase it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A few FYI's on raw meat products:
Freezing can kill off a great deal of microorganisms on/in meat including E. coli and Samonella, IF the moisture level is high enough (it will be in fresh meat) and the freezer is cold enough (It will NOT be in any self-defrosting freezer). There are many models of commercial freezers however that would.

If you feed an all raw diet without bones or mineral supplements you will get a dog with calcium and phosphorus deficiency. There are not sufficient levels of these minerals in meat.

While it is true that most vets have very little training in Nutrition it is also important to remember that these are not the people who formulate dog foods. One of the major flaws with anecdotal evidence for the benefits of feeding a raw diet is the data used to make judgements. Skin benefits are often attributed to a higher fat intake of appropriate and non-oxidized fatty acids. If you were to simple add these to the diet on which skin problems were seen you would likely also see the same benefit (this excludes of course food allergies). I am unaware of anyone feeding their dog a BARF diet who routinely examined biochemical indicators of nutritional status before and after feeding a BARF diet.

The reason you do not see controlled scientific studies examining BARF vs commercial diets is two fold:
1) In order to have a truly controlled study, equal amounts of energy as well as all relevant amino acids, fatty acids, etc. would have to be equal, also taking in to account variance in bioavailability due to heat treatment. When you have two diets that are balanced, seeing any significance (barring the presence of a severe toxin), would require the use of a tremendous number of animals, due to the difficulty in establishing differences in variation from within treatment groups to those between treatment groups.

2) No economic power would benefit from this research despite having to invest a tremendous amount of money. If a dog food company did this study, BARF people would still not believe the results and would continue feeding raw.

The lack of scientific data against the nutritional adequacy of a BARF diet does not provide proof of nutritional adequacy.

If anyone has specific nutritional questions , I would be happy to try and answer them.

Chad, the difference between BARF and other natural diets is that the calcium and phosphorus in the BARF diet comes from the bones. If one is going to feed a natural diet with boneless meat, raw OR cooked, then one should use bone meal powder, available in most health food stores (the human grade stuff, not the stuff you use in your garden). Calcium citrate or calcium carbonate should also do the trick.
If you feed raw meaty bones, then you shouldn't need to supplement with calcium.

Exactly right JParker.

Another reason you may not see controlled scientific studies is there's a lot of money to be made in kibble. Its not in a commercial dog food maker's interest to publish much favorable information about raw food. Thats where most of the studies come from. Thats also important to remember when trying to make an informed decision on what to feed your dog.

Chad--

You wrote "I am unaware of anyone feeding their dog a BARF diet who routinely examined biochemical indicators of nutritional status before and after feeding a BARF diet."

Darn! I wish I'd heard from you about the blood panels you recommended before I switched--I would have like to do that. Too late now, but I will be doing the panels in about 6 months just to check up on the diet.

Aiko,

"Kibble is a MAN made diet! Show me the studies that say feeding kibble is scientifically better for my dogs. What better study is there than those breeders, people who have been feeding it for years ???? My vet was not very keen on my feeding this way, but she also knew that I was not going to change. Over the years, her attitude towards it has been encouraging. I am so thankful that she was open minded. Her words have been....well, I don't like the idea of feeding raw meat to dogs but I can't argue with the health of your dogs either."

Believe it or not, the dog food companies have a vested interest in providing a good product. Without it they would be out of buisness. Their research has led to the introduction of the "premium" brands. That is without the independant studies they have funded. I know it isn't necessarily popular to look at hard data, but that is what they have been providing for years. The BARF diet is a man made diet also. It is an attempt to duplicate a more natural diet, but as has been pointed out wild animals are not always the healthiest animals on the planet. In most cases wild animals live longer in captivity than in the wild. Diet isn't the only difference in the populations, but it would be a consideration.

"I am tired of every health problem in dogs today being blamed on 'breeding'. Just like I don't beleive that every health problem is due to what the dog eats. Thyroid problems are not necessarily due to 'breedings and specific breeds'. In fact there have been studies done on this, by Dr. Jean Dodds , who states that most of the thyroid problems in dogs today are due exclusively to vaccines. I also beleive that she has published this information. (at least she said she was in process of having that done when I heard her lecture in person)."

I have no hard facts, just my experience. I have been watching breeds for a long time. What I have seen is that in many breeds more and more problems crop up, while those same problems don't occur in other breeds. Is it your contention that Thyroid disorders are as common in the BRT, CAO, CO, Canaan Hound, or the Dogo as it is in the Golden Retriever, Giant Schnauzer and several other breeds. If the causal agent(s) are the same why are the deseases not equally prevelant in all breeds recieving the same treatments. Lets face it we have been dealing with a HUGH study on these diseases. In addition why are diseases like PRA and Dysplasia tested for prior to breeding? I know that there have to be many factors involved with these types of diseases, but the standard vaccination schedule has existed long before these diseases began to creep in to some breeds and food quality has gone up not down over the last 15 years. If there is not a significant genetic component why have these diseases gotten more prevelant and not less? Why in some breeds have there been improvements in the breed during the same time frame based on better breeding techniques? With the BRT the grading of hips has gone up in the last 5-10 years and the incidence of dysplasia has gone down.

I am always willing to look at any information on these subjects as I know that simple observation can lead to incorrect conclusions, if you know where I can find a copy of the Dodds study I would love to read it. I am also aware that many reseachers have a vested interest in their conclusions and will only look at their data based on the conclusion that they desire. That is why I like to look at studies. An unbiased eye can usually identify bad data analasis in a very short time.

JParker,

I have been editing my posts for a week or so. Just click on the pencil at the top of the post, works like a charm.
Just did it again!!!