Well said Sandy.

I'm getting a little confused about what this post is actually about though - WE all argree on the appropriate and important use of the DD collar, and we all agree that it isn't painful or damaging to the dog. The OP may not like the idea of hanging a dog, but he can't argue (if he's ever had a dog THAT intent on aggressing) with it's effectiveness - and the DD collar is just that: E F F E C T I V E! However, it doesn't sound like the OP actually has any dogs (or works with any) that have serious aggression problems - he may simply have clients who want to use choke chains... thus the post.

I will speak as the owner of a 95lb pet dog with dog dominant issues. He is A-OK with people and respects human authority, but he is dominant with dogs, and that can cause aggressive responses to particular dogs under particular circumstances. And I will second - if you have a truly dominant dog, it's not a question of IF that dominance will result in aggression, it's only a question of under what circumstance.

We started with nylon choke collars (not the DD), and LOTS of positive reinforced training (treats galore!), and for 2 years we struggled hopelessly trying to both correct AND distract/contain Oscar when he went into drive (this included lots of enthusiastic drive, not only aggression). I can only say: cookies only get you so far, and as for the choke - what a useless tool! I'm certain that the choke collar (and our sadly inappropriate use of it) did minor damage to Oscar's neck/throat, and I kick myself to this day for thinking I was using something "more humane" than a pinch, or a DD collar. Even worse though is the obvious fact that we couldn't train him - AT ALL - with the choke. Floundering around with a confused and flustered dog, using an ineffective tool, is simply a downward spiral of frustration that leads NOWHERE.

Today (very much wiser) we use a pinch collar 90% of the time on walks, and have the DD collar on backup. I love Ed's description of the prong as "power steering", and boy do you need it on a spirited dog who weighs nearly as much as you! For OB reminders and distraction issues, a pop on the prong is all I need to get his attention, and my arm stays safely in it's socket. In situations I KNOW will have Oscar on his toes and looking for a reason to "start something" I'll put the lead directly on the DD collar and be ready to take him out of drive the MINUTE he starts to puff up. This combo works so well it's downright dreamy.

I don't have a severly aggressive dog. He isn't the least bit handler aggressive, or outright dog aggressive for that matter - and he gets along/plays quite well with many neighborhood dogs. But he is dominant, he is strong and determined, and even though he is a food LUNATIC, when he's really in drive for something, waving steak in front of his nose and cooing to him does NOTHING. The prong collar and the DD collar, used respectively in the right situations, are THE most effective tools I have, and while I'm only a first time big dog owner who is in NO way an expert at any of this, I have to say, it's not rocket science. Anyone with a brain and an obvious interest in a good relationship with their dog (which includes the best control by the handler and the most efficient and humane handlING for the dog) can learn to use a prong and a DD collar - the best part is that after using something like a flat collar or choke on a difficult dog, the results come so quickly it actually encourages the learning process...

In closing, to the OP, please discourage the use of choke collars - they aren't healthy, they don't work, and for your dog, his world is a whole lot easier to understand without them. JMHO

~Natalya

Natalya,

I think the OP is reserved about the DD collar, wants to know our thoughts on the choke collar and relies on a prong.

IMHO, the choke collar should not be used on any dog. Although, if fitted and used correctly they do work.

However, I like the "fluid" motion of the DD collar rather than the "ratchet" effect of a choke chain.

I guess I just don't see what's so hard about understanding that temporarily restricting a dog's airway is preferable to someone/some animal potentially dying. To suggest that positive reinforcement is going to mean diddly to a dominant dog is highly entertaining. I picture my most dominant dog in several situations where this might apply, and I laugh to myself..."Caleb, honey, Mommy will give you a cookie if you don't kill Widget." <Click, treat>. LOL. Or "Caleb, honey, platz instead of attacking the idiot tresspassing neighbor, and Mommy will give you a cookie." Redirecting and positive reinforcement are fine and dandy for offenses like chewing the couch...not chewing animals or people. Dangerous, dangerous thinking! Tree-hugging does not coincide well with dealing with a dog capable of dishing out death.

Gee, maybe I was a bit quick to dive in and choke him out, but I still have my other dog, so I maintain it worked and will do it again in a heartbeat if necessary. I'm Jen, and I'm a sadist. "Hi, Jen."

Dominance, like Susan (I think it was Susan) said doesn't always result in aggression UNLESS the dog is challenged. Well...ain't that convenient. Challenge a dominant dog, get a fight. Dominance, IMO, is purely genetic. It can be controlled, but never eliminated. It is simply part of who the dog is. His inclination will always be such, and when the going gets tough, it will surface. Bet on it.

One funny thing....how many of you have really dominant dogs who lie down in the presence of others? There's not a snowball's chance in hell I could put my dog in a down as a correction for aggression. He won't lie down w/any men around to begin with; down is too submissive a position. The suggestion is preposterous. A prong correction may not work either, and depending on when you give it, could make your problems a lot worse. I don't think the DD collar is anything more than a tool that helps people safely defuse a dangerous situation. They're not used just for fun, nor are they used for day to day corrections, to the best of my knowledge.

The alternative is quite simple; kill the dog instead. God forbid we cretins restrict his airway just because he may kill or maim someone.

Ben, sorry to come off so sarcastically, but I feel like we just had this conversation a week ago. If you disagree w/our methods of controlling aggression, fine. But while we aren't suggesting you use these methods on the PETS you deal with, you keep pushing towards trying PET methods on dogs who are a far cry from Fluffy. Do I have it all wrong???

Edited to say I am obviously not addressing Kristel...although I replied to her post.

I dsagree with a line of differentiation between pets and working dogs as to whether or not a DD collar is ever needed.

There are pets too who are a far cry from Fluffy. And there are plenty of working dogs who don't need a DD.

I think that the kind of trainer one is means very little with regard to whether one sees the logic in a DD collar.

What turns on the light is seeing it used in time, when it's needed.

Thanks Carol - I was trying (with my very long post ) to give the OP an opinion from someone who DOESN'T have a dog who's tried to kill a person or another dog (except for that time Oscar attempted to snuff out the family Pom... ) - just another voice in support of the techniques serious dog owners use, but from a pet owner's perspective. I've never seen dangerous handler aggression in person, but I've seen enough other behavior in my big couch potato to know that it's nothing to mess around with.

~Natalya

*Connie - you hit that nail on the head!

A DD collar would incur a blood choke as opposed to an airway restriction.

I've been choked both ways.

Putting a kink on the airway sucks, and is painful. It takes a hard surface perpendicular to the throat. If we were talking humans, this would go from pain compliance to homicide...in about 4 minutes. Yes, slow and painful.

Now, even pressure around the neck simply cuts off the blood supply. You can turn someone out someone's lights out in SECONDS...and it's NOT particularly painful. In fact, it's almost kinda pleasant.*

*No, not THAT.

hmmmm....okay steven, not going down that road

i can second what natalya's saying from a pet owner's perspective. i need prongs and DD collars to control teagan, b/c when she's switched to kill (well, no prongs then, she becomes more aggressive), 'leave it' just doesn't work. treats/distractions don't work. i have to stop her.

i'm guessing teagan is a fluffball next to a lot of the dogs people handle on here, but she's still tried to kill dogs outside, other pets of mine inside, has bitten me out of dominance and come up the leash at me on flat collar corrections. and you know what my biggest problem is? acknowledging that she is a dog with the capacity to kill, even though i see her behaviour on a daily basis. but if i didn't have tools like the DD collar, given how she can react to the prong - i'd have a problem.

I confirmed something I had thought ALL along last night.

"You train a dominant aggressive pitbull the same way you would train a dominant aggressive toy poodle".

Dominant is dominant and aggressive is aggressive.
I do not really think you can split it into Pet VS. Working.

The temperament of the dog (Hard/Soft & Reactive/Passive) is important not the breed or use of the dog.

I think that once we start trying to justify the size and breed of the dog, we make it more difficult, when, if we just remember the above statement, it makes it A LOT easier to get the job done correctly.

I'm new to this site but god I love the people here and their passion. This is one of the few places you can go for the truth and the spirit in which it is given.

DD collar, should of had one , but didn't. What I did have was sch 3 handler agggresive rottie at 108#s, and a novice handler with dreams of a world title in germany. Just finished a good morning of OB. Put the dog on a down waiting for the helper to finish.

The dog broke (still had his 20' lead on) call back, paid no attention, timed the correction right at the end of the lead, wow that will teach him, oops! ahhhh sh@%. When he looked at me I knew. Well it seemed like it took him forever to det to his prey but when he did I didn't believe was really going to use me for his bite work, I was wrong. 3-4 minutes seems like an eternity, especially when u can't turn loose of the leash. Lets see, first pass he missed. OMG about 20 holes in my wind breaker but none in me. Yea buddy!, maybe I need to do some of that handler stuff, you know SITZ u bast%&d SITZ. Hell I'm good he's sitting, ...or.." maybe he's just trying to figure out how in the hell did I just miss that idot!" Well lets see how he likes this command, ahh crap to late here he comes again.

I know,I'll hang him with that choker. Wrong.

Damges to dog, none. Damages to handler, severed left thumb, later gangrene. 9 holes right arm.

I've never seen a dog who can't breathe, BITE.

U can believe these people. I hope u figure out that truly no one likes to see anybody get hurt, but it happens. Do it the right way, DD collar might even save your life. Peace and good luck.

Its funny how the elitism bleeds through this thread. I did not post here to argue about DD collars. I posted to as about chokes. As soon as some of you see a post you don't agree with you jump on it, tearing it down but providing know useful info of your own.

Nothing you say is going to convince me that hanging a dog is necessary in anything but an emergency (where all bets are off). There are many effective, professional dog trainers that rehab aggressive dogs with out ever using a correction. You can call it "sissy footing" like Trevor did (name calling belies inexperience in my book also) but there are alternative methods, DD collars are not the only way, they may be the quickest or "most effective" but if there is another possibility I'll try that.