Well, sometimes it's not all that easy to tell exactly what is driving the aggression. It's a tricky situation, and one that you want to make sure you have exactly right before proceeding. You certainly don't want to choke out a fear-aggressive dog, and you certainly don't want to praise the bejesus out of a dog likely to maim someone because he was told "no."

 Quote: Jennifer Marshal

Anyhow, my only thing would be that anger can cause more problems that it solves and yes, most definitley easier said than done, anger in dominance situations is a natural response for a vast majority of people, but if you can harness that angry energy in being productive and FAIR in correcting the behavior, maintaining the upper hand and utilizing your experience and knowledge of the dog you are working with, then its ok if you can't 100% control your anger (though, yes, it should be attempted but is difficult) If you know in the situation that you can win and the danger/safety factor is not such that you or the dog is going to be seriously injured, then correcting the behavior is the best course of action.

EXACTLY! This is why I said, the NEXT time I would make sure that I was prepared. I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to take on a dog for the sake of anger. Dogs don't respect that at all, finding a way to walk away from the immediate situation w/o looking chicken is the challenge, lol!

Also I will say that females challenge female handlers more than male handlers, and males challenge male handlers more than female handlers.

MY EXPERIENCE TO A T! Females are a pita (Pain in the A$$) never had one that didn't challenge me. Males never had an issue with. My female LOVES my hubby, btw) I absolutely agree w/the opposite sex thing.

Ah, and to Jennifer now :-D I do not blame you for avoiding situations where you know Teagan has the potential for becoming aggressive. Controlling her atmosphere and environment is part of being alpha, you are at the stage of protecting your dog.. mainly protecting her from herself, and protecting yourself in that you are still unsure that you are capable of really being able to take control if something goes wrong.

AGREE COMPLETELY, if you go back over establishing pack order you will see that taking control of her toys, when she goes for a walk, when she eats, goes outside EVERYTHING is up to you. I would even go so far as to make her wait a little the next time she trys to innitiate something, even ignore her a little. Let her know, it will happen when YOU want it to, not because she said so.

I think that for now, being prepared and ready in case something does happen out side of your control, is fine until you can gain the confidence and perhaps experience and mentoring from someone who has dealt with these behaviors before. Until you are comfortable handling her and are confident that you really can, I think avoiding situations with Teagan that you are not comfortable with yet, is a good idea. BUT don't let this become habit, and continue your ground work with her. Don't become so stuck on avoidance that you slink back inadvertently into being subordinant to Teagan. Pick your battles and you are more likely to win the war.

JEN, you are a wise person, and have made great strides with both dogs. No reason why you can't continue to be a strong pack leader! Maybe spend some time doing some scenario work in your own head BEFORE issues occur and find ways to keep your station w/o looking whimpy to her, then preparing better the next time. It's not neccessary to challenge, only to keep your alpha role intact and being prepared the next time. I need to learn how to quote properly, this isn't right???? sheesh!

Jennifer,
After 5 weeks, I don't think (from what you've related) Teagan is going to just accept you. And I think you realize this is going to be a long time endeavor. Patience is the first order of today and every day for, oh I don't know, forever maybe. A dog like Teagan will always be looking for a chink to climb into for social rank. I'm not saying it will always be the challenge it is now, only you'll know when it's time to remind her with what the basic rules are and everything all be fine again. But it will take awhile and patiences to get there.
Outside of the home territory it's a matter of who is in control of who or what is considered a threat. The matter of who is in control starts in the home territory. I know, you know all of this, bear with me for my amusement. What I think you need to learn are the triggers for her. Even hair triggers have some pull to them. Findout where the release is and then you can start working to show her the way. Every dog but the most unstable give some sign before releasing (so to speak), we only need to find that key. That your new helper didn't spot it the first time means nothing, he knows what starts it and I'll bet (if he's any good) will have the language down within 3 more sessions no matter how quick Teagan is.
Chance nothing at home. Don't tip toe around. Watch, watch what dogs watch, body language, the eyes, even the slightest tension of a muscle, be prepared, don't surrender at home. Be prepared, be cool, calmly take charge.

Earn her trust in your leadership, and she'll lay her life down for you.
Randy

PS.
Speaking for myself, and I'm sure for many others here, I know you and dogs were born for each other.

what a nice thing to say randy, thank you. i do really enjoy them even if i'm not always a fan of all their behaviours.

(i had dinner w/my family tonight, and mentioned teagan had bit me....we're going away hiking (renting a cabin) over xmas, my mother just looked thrilled. but we're staying at a resort, and the owners have 2 GSDs (he's a retired cop, i think one of the dogs is a PSD washout), including an aggressive female. tee)

i definitely expect it to be a long process with teagan. it's one reason why i decided to take a step back, i thought maybe i was moving too fast. even if she is dominant, i think i still have to take her willingness to bite me as a indication that perhaps my strategy w/her needed a rework.

and i figured w/the toys too - before, i took out a toy, played w/her a bit, but let her play with her toy. then when i tried to take away, got biten. now, i take out my toy, i play with her with my toy, and then when it's time that the playing is over, i put away my toy and there's no issue. i don't think that distinction would matter w/a dog like luc (assuming he wanted to play with toys) but i think it does with a dog like teagan.

i don't tip toe around her. truly, i don't.

but you know what i realized - reading your post - i DO know her triggers! small animals, including small dogs, trigger prey, and i'm getting pretty good at the correction for that (outside).

disrespectful/not appropriately submissive dogs trigger her aggression as well. that's a trigger. i can figure out disrespectful dogs (i mean, duh) and i'm getting better at reading body language so i can see when a strange dog isn't acting submissive. that's a trigger. maybe that's a really wide trigger, but it's applicable.
....when does she go for them? i haven't figured out her radius yet, while she might give a dog 25M away the death stare, she won't 'go' for them - she's not stupid, she's knows she's not getting near them (IMO). will she go for a dog 5ft away? yes. 5M away? yes. and she does it when she gets the closest to them that our trajectory allows for. so - like i said, i don't know her radius, but i kinda do know her point of going for the other dog.

....and i got her to sit today without leash assistance today with the open door going back into the house. did she sit immediately - unfortunately no, i had to repeat the command (i could see her thinking about it, and eventually s-l-o-w-l-y sitting, but she did, and she waited until i released her).

(now if only my landlady would close the sliding doors leading into her apartment off the entrance hall. she has 7 cats, and there's always cats in that front room. i've explained teagan has a high prey drive, but she just doesn't seem to get it. she keeps saying she's airing out her part of the house....gee, maybe if she cleaned the litterboxes regularly (seriously, whenever she goes away and i pet sit the entry way smells way better). but that's a bitchy aside. i'm always closing the door for her cats safety though, it's kind of annoying.)

edit: that trainer isn't going to come. b/c of distance he travelled, it would have cost me a $1000 for 8 sessions. which is just a bit of an ouch before xmas, and he said he thought i was doing good, and that i can still consult w/him by phone or email if i have questions. he does also have people send their dogs to him to be trained, which he mentioned but not enthusiastically (i don't like the idea at all anyways, especially when my biggest problem w/teagan is getting her to accept my leadership, sending her away would do exactly nothing for that).

No Jen,
I wouldn't send her away either.
You knew what to do though.

Learning with real dog people.
Randy

Edited by randy allen (12/04/2007 10:29 PM)
Edit reason: change of wording

i keep thinking i should just save up....but i honestly think he was unexcited at the thought of driving to toronto himself. i may ask him to come in for a couple of one-off sessions though, just to maybe work out some specific stuff if i'm having issues and phone/email consult doesn't do it.

(he said people really like the send away training. geez, why get a dog - can't take the time to work with it and train it, what do you want from a dog you don't want to spend time with? that really weirds me out.)

In Ed's theory of corrections podcast (and other places, I'm sure) he talks about send-away training. I agree with your sentiment (why even get a dog?) but also, send away trainers need results fast, and often use methods that work fast. We all know what these methods are, and I don't think anyone thinks these methods are effective for making a dog that LIKES to do OB work.

Someone mentioned body language...one tbing tbat I pay a great deal of attention to on my dogs is their tails. Caesar Milan taught me this and I have watched it ever since. When a dogs tail is high in the air almost curling over their backs, this means extreme dominance. If the tail is down and casual, it means comfort, if it is between the legs it means fear/insecurity. Every dog is different but watch Teagans tail as she responds to stimuli, this can tell you a great deal about how she will react to given situations. I swear by this technique.