Quote: Geoff Empey

 Quote: Dennis Jones

My GSD hackles come up when chasing a ball or at prey items, it might be a little disturbing to some people at the park I frequent

Mine sometimes does it as well when she has engaged prey items as well .. Like I said earlier I always thought it was a lead up to aggressive behaviour. So it always threw me off when she would do it in times when you'd least expect aggressive behaviour.

When my girl did it there was absolutely no sign of defense or conflict. She hackled on the way back to me with a tug, came into my arms and let me cradle her and then outed immediately at first request. She was clear headed throughout everything. 99% of the time raised hackles means defense, but there is also that 1.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

It depends on the dog, I think - some dogs hackle in prey drive I have noticed. See tug. Tug is moved. Lock on with attention to tug. Tug is moved more. Frustration builds... the tug is a prey item - when a dog goes after prey there can be a fight. Lets continue with the tug example - the dog knows that he is going to have to fight for that tug a bit, grab, pull, maybe shake, firm tight grip etc. The tug doesn't just become limp and lifeless like dead prey, we make it fight back. Anticipation of the fight I can see would potentially cause the hackling. Generally speaking, in my experience, hackling is a defensive tactic. It means somehow the dog interprets a threat, somewhere. Something int he territory or environment is a threat or requires that communicative body language of "I am BIG!! Do you see? BIG!"

Hence my previous post, John - I do agree that it is not always a defense driven reaction, but I would say mostly it is. The original purpose of the ability to raise the ruff and hackle is to make an animal look larger in the face of a threat. I do agree that excitement can logically play a hand in cases with working or high drive dogs - as I mentioned I have seen a dog that was entirely alone in a backyard working on drive building with a tug and flirt pole, as soon as the dog locked on attention wise to that 'prey item' and began the chase it hackled.

I personally look at it from the point of view as outlined above, I believe it is linked with conflict of some sort and doesn't mean the dog neccessary feels pressured, afraid, or directly threatened (Unless showing avoidance) but that the dog some how benefits from its hackles being raised, or thinks it does.

If the dog knows it has a fight ahead, even if it is going to win and has never lost in the exact or similar situations, it may hackle in response, in anticipation of the fight. Or in short terms, the excitement of the chase.

Of course I could be completely wrong, not enough dogs I've been around have hackled on a regular basis or at all unless as a defensive/aggressive/avoidance tactic and wolves do not encounter the same situations that dogs do so I have no basis there. It could be something as simple as a natural reaction of the skin and nerves that raises the hair in response to excitement or cold the same as when a human's hair stands up on the back of their neck, or when we get goosebumps when cold or startled.

It is a fun topic and I find it very interesting that it seems hackling for excitement/anticipation of catching prey/fight for prey is not uncommon. I hadn't seen but that one dog do it before and it sure intruiged me at the time.

My bitch raises the hairs on her butt when its really cold outside......

Weak nerves are so much more than hackling. Weak nerves are anything from how the dog behaves in strange places, around strange people, how quickly they get over things they were unsure about, reaction to noise, reaction to sudden movements, reaction to objects suddenly coming in their direction, how jumpy they are in general, reaction to heights, reaction to walking on the edge of a boat dock etc. I have seen dogs that do fine in bitework on the training field, but are wrecks off the field. Dogs who hackle during prey work with the decoy are being defensive about something, either the decoy is doing something wrong, or the dog doesn't "get it" yet. Some green dogs that dont understand bitework yet will hackle at the decoy even though they seem to be in prey. If your dog is hackling in the park when you throw a ball, look at the environment around the dog. Are there people that she doesn't know? Is she a ball posessive dog by nature? She may be worried about these strangers taking her ball before she can get it, so is reacting defensively. Are there other dogs around? Is there a strong scent from other dogs? Lots of reasons that aren't immediately apparent. Not saying excitement can't be the cause, but there are often factors people overlook, even as simple as the scent of other dogs around with a prey posessive dog chasing their ball.

Alot of people get defensive when someone tells them that their dog is nervey. The reality is, most dogs are nervey! Heck, where do you think "defense" comes from??? Defense stems from fear/self preservation. But most dogs NEED a little bit of that nervey edge to them, its what makes the dog alert and gives them the sharpness people need in a "watch dog". It is what the dog DOES with this that counts.

Either a dog is aggressive out of defense, or the dog is aggressive out of dominance. Most people can't/don't want to handle the type of dog that is aggressive out of severe dominance, and alot of people have started saying "no my dog isn't sharp/nervey/defensive, he's just really dominant" because it sounds better (is there a rolling-eye smiley on this forum??).

Most owners can't read their dog well enough to judge whether he has weak nerves or not. The biggest problem here is not even so much that the owners can't read their dog, but that people don't like knowing the truth about their dog. People make up excuses rather than admitting their dog isn't perfect. No dog is perfect, except mine ofcourse If you aren't willing to accept the limitations of your dog, then you will not excel in training. You need to address these limitations or the dog will not improve. Calling them something different or denying their existance is only detrimental to the training.

Yay Mike! You said what I meant in a better way, I think. Excellent description of various stimuli causing a dog to hackle. That is what I meant, but couldn't really say. I do think that anticipation of the fight for the prey can cause a dog to hackle, but in general it is a reaction to a perceived threat. I just couldn't figure out how to say that the threat may not be to the dog itself and thanks for your great outline of possessiveness and threats that humans don't see (smells)

Well put.

 Quote: john j. miller

What you describe is a confident outgoing playful pup. This is exactly how a pup would greet one of it's littermates. The biting is play, as is the jumping. She is a normal little butthead, like most of our puppies. She needs to be taught positively that there are better things to bite that you and other humans, and that biting/mouthing you will not get her attention. Keep a toy/tug/ball on a string around to redirect her when she wants to bite.

yea I agree. Me and my brother used to play fight when my GSD was a pup. When he started maturing he did this whenever he saw me, so What I did is change things up, I cut a piece of rope about 2ft, then I tied 2 big knots on each end and 1 big knot in the middle. And it was extremely helpful instead play fighting when he saw me he brought me his "rope toy"(what I call it). Now even over a year later he still loves it(and saved $10 from petsmart lol). Also this how I taught him the commands Give it, drop it and let go(for more info on this pm me).

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Just to add in another comment on hackling - it is a defensive response. The entire purpose of hackling is to make the animal seem larger and more imposing to a foe. A dog that hackles and runs around with it's hindquarters lowered and darts back and forth and had a low tail etc is a nervous dog in avoidance that if pushed or cornered may bite (fight or flight) But a dog with hackles up that stands tall and is forward moving is defensive and trying to intimidate the opponent.

this makes sense to me. luc's recent hackling would appear to be defensive then, as he moves forward and has confident body language. i've also noticed he turns slightly to the side when moving forward, which i've assumed he's doing to appear bigger.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

There are many different levels of "nerve" in dogs - there are dogs that are very weak nerved and respond to the slightest thing.. say maybe the sound of an empty soda can falling on a hard surface floor, with running/hiding/tail tucked/slinking or urinating and exposing the belly. Some dogs only respond in this extreme way to specific things, such as something entirely new, or strange people. A dog can show weak nerves around new/strange people and yet be territorial and aggressive/forward moving with strange animals or objects. A dog can sensitivity to sounds and nothing else. And so on and so forth.

again, very interesting. luc will run from some things (other dogs, if i mess up and let it reach that point) and he doesn't like trucks and vans, bottles of pop that fizz (no idea why) - but, he has shown himself able to get used to those things, which is one of the reasons why i get confused regarding what's weak nerves and what isn't, also b/c he has stood his ground in situations i expected him not to. but obviously it isn't an all or nothing proposition.

This discussion has cleared alot of the haze for me. I have several dogs and they hackle for different reasons. one always hackles at strange noises or even when he is over-excited and doesnt recover as quickly as Id like. HE isnt very "clearheaded" and Ive seen him display missed placed aggression. I think that these several things are related, the distrust of new situation (and hence the hackles) and the fact that he isnt clear headed. Although he only displays these behaviours when he is on leash or in the house, i.e. restrained. when he is out running around he doesnt have any issues with anything.

 Quote: Mary Roach

Ive had someone tell me that they think my dog is weak nerved because she hackled once when barking at a couple of strange men coming onto our property but she didnt seem scared, only probably unsure of whether she could take them on if neccesary. she stood her ground and didnt back or turn sideways, so I wondered if that was a fearful reaction.

One of my instructors at TCA told me that my bitch was weak nerved because she hackled also. Funny thing was, she was standing tall and leaning forward, straining at the end of leash while barking at the strange noise (I can't remember for sure what it was, something outside a door that was propped open). Wish I had read this post back then, lol. I could have informed him (as he should have known) that hackling did not automatically mean weak nerves. I think, really, he just didn't like her because she's show line (I didn't know the difference when I got her almost 8 years ago ... I thought German was German, lol. At least I knew better than to get Am lines)

yes, I knew my dog just not enough "theory" to explain or refute. Its so frusterating when know-it-alls do that to the newbies but it taught me not just accept other peoples assement of me or my dog

 Quote: elisabeth barber

 Quote: mary roach

Ive had someone tell me that they think my dog is weak nerved because she hackled once when barking at a couple of strange men coming onto our property but she didnt seem scared, only probably unsure of whether she could take them on if neccesary. she stood her ground and didnt back or turn sideways, so I wondered if that was a fearful reaction.

One of my instructors at TCA told me that my bitch was weak nerved because she hackled also. Funny thing was, she was standing tall and leaning forward, straining at the end of leash while barking at the strange noise (I can't remember for sure what it was, something outside a door that was propped open). Wish I had read this post back then, lol. I could have informed him (as he should have known) that hackling did not automatically mean weak nerves. I think, really, he just didn't like her because she's show line (I didn't know the difference when I got her almost 8 years ago ... I thought German was German, lol. At least I knew better than to get Am lines)

 Quote:

yes, I knew my dog just not enough "theory" to explain or refute. Its so frusterating when know-it-alls do that to the newbies but it taught me not just accept other peoples assement of me or my dog

Here's the thing...most all dogs will get their hackles up over something or another. My dog hackles when another, strange dog approaches. He is dog aggressive and has no issues trying to get at another dog, the whole time hackles up! I have seen him hackle when someone's head is visible over our back wall! When we are camping and inside the trailer, if he hears a noise outside it will cause him to hackle and bark. I have been at the park sitting on the grass w/a friend and had a strange man that she knew but we didn't know come up fast to us, he hackled, moved towards the man growling and barking. Is this a sign that he will protect me? NO, its not. Sometimes aggressive behavior can mean an insecure dog, he was only 9 months old at the time, had push come to shove he probably would have run behind me. It all depended on how I handled the situation. I calmed him, had him lay down and within a few minutes of my not beig alarmed he calmed and eventually quit watching the guy.

Hackles are an emotion just like any other. Humans cry for different reasons, get mad at different things, all for different reasons, what might cause one person to react may not cause another person to react or may cause them to react but with a different emotion. There are things my g/f will cry about that will downright tick me off! It all depends on the dog.

Now, once you have determined that your dog isn't weak nerved you still have to deal with the fact that if you are expecting your dog to truly protect you, that your dog will probably fail the test. Most dogs will choose flight over fight. This is why we TRAIN them for protection. We train them to find confidence in the FIGHT. Many a German Showline dog has been trained in protection and will protect. Will they have the strongest grip? Will they have a full deep grip? Maybe not but they will, nonetheless, bite if they are TRAINED to overcome the fear of the FIGHT. Many a working line dog from a litter that great things were expected out of may have great bite work but still run from a fight! It's all in getting the PROPER training. It is fine to talk about weak/strong nerves but as Ed has stated many times 99% of all dogs will not protect in a serious situation, weak nerves or not. I say this because most of us are women and we don't need to be fooled into a false sense of security. As Mike S stated it is better to know the limitations of your dog so that you can counter with proper training than to assume that the dog is capable of something that he is not.
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