So 2 other trainers have looked at the dog. That means nothing to me. I have several dogs that are clients(yes the dogs are...LOL) one in particular that was told to be euthanized by 3 trainers, 1 behaviorist, and 2 vets. He is fine now. It was a simple dominance problem that was being misinterpreted. I stick by what I said earlier.

John, as far as emotions involved. When you describe an event there is always emotion.

Unless, we can actually see the behavior, it is naive to use a blanket statement this is definetly this or definetly that.

Remember the behavior started when a child invaded the dogs den. Another instance when a child tried to pet the dog while chewing on a toy. Teaching the dog children are not to be trusted.

I just re-read the original post(again). I don't believe fear has anything to do with it. The dog was taken out of its crate and corrected for something that was perfectly legit. There is a good chance the dog had no idea why it was being corrected. The dog was in protected places and approached again. It was chewing a bone. The person at the vets office moving slowly(suspicous). It allows people to pet it, then decides to growl. If it was fear based they wouldn't even be able to pet it in the first place. Sounds like a defensive pup to me. Actually sounds like a Czech dog.LOL Love those Czechs...

So in my Not so humble opinion this is a dominant dog with a high level of defense. Now if you want to get into the debate that defense is really based out of fear...that is another thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Richard, I’ll definitely have someone who does protection work evaluate her. Coming from a different perspective would definitely be helpful. There’s a Schutzhund club about a half hour away led by a guy who’s pretty reputable. I’ve talked to him over the phone before. The clicker trainer made her ‘fear’ evaluation in part based on the fact that it took the pup a long time to warm up to her. Part of what she sensed as fear may have been just GSD aloofness. One thing, I have never seen the pup spook’. She does not seem fearful handling new places, situations, noises, etc. She investigates them calmly. While I’m leaning toward believing that the growling is a fear response, just because she is so young, I’m sure I would get some insight into her temperament(degree of dominance, confidence, etc.) from his evaluation.

Richard, you mentioned ‘hanging’ as a correction. How do you do this?

Melissa, I’m not sure what the vaccine was. I’ll have to call the vet’s office when they open later today. Several days after the vaccination she did have conjunctivitis (at first in only one eye). About a week after the vaccine she developed a cough. She had bronchitis/ tonsillitis. She vet treated her with antibiotics and she was fine.

By the way, I haven’t seen any growling for about 4 days. Of course, I am pretty carefully managing her environment. The kids still have as much contact as before. I’m just watching them like a hawk when they get close to her while she is in a ‘protected’area, or when she has something in her mouth. The trainer’s plan is to slowly desensitize her to this stuff. At least I don’t feel she is getting worse.

Martha

Todd, just to clarify, in reference to the ‘crate incident’ you say ‘The dog was taken out of its crate and corrected for something that was perfectly legit.’ Are you saying that I should NOT have corrected her for this growling/snapping? Or are you just describing things from the pup’s perspective – that it’s legitimate to defend against someone who invades your den?

Martha

Martha,

Check your private messages.

From the dogs perspective what it did was perfectly acceptable. The better solution is to not let the situation happen at all. Everybody makes mistakes, just learn from them.

Martha,

My reference to the crate correction is two fold. One is the time it takes you to get over to the crate take the dog out and give a correction, the dog has no idea what the correction was for. The second, is it is the dogs den. They should be perfectly safe in there, and in my opinion in his right to defend his castle.

Richard and Todd,

I agree I should never have allowed the crate incident to happen. I just did not anticipate it and was totally shocked that my niece did this. My niece and all the other kids have big dogs and have spent a lot of time around them. I forget that my niece is probably ADD. My sister told me that my niece was convinced that their chicks could swim so she put one of them in the swimming pool (unbeknownst to my sister). She then ran to tell her mom that "see the chick IS able to swim since it’s putting its head under the water." My sister quickly fished the chick out. Needless to say it died the next day -- probably of pneumonia.

Anyway, anybody who has kids knows that no matter how good you supervise your kids with dogs (or anything else for that matter) you can never totally predict what will happen.

So we all agree that this was a big mistake that I will do my best to make sure never happens again. Given this, though, I'm just wondering, do you think that under the circumstances I should have allowed the pup to snap and growl at my niece without any consequences?

Martha

Martha,
I'm coming into this a little late, and haven't read every single post, so bear with me if I have the wrong idea. But, I just wanted to give you an example of what has happened in my house, and see if it has any parallels to some of the things that you've observed.

I own two dogs, a Labrador male, and a 6 year old mixed breed bitch (probably a heeler/BC/springer cross). Both are great with well behaved kids. But, I have an 8 year old nephew who is very active, and has stepped on the bitch more than once, not watching where he is going. The last time this occurred, the bitch was resting on the floor, between the sofa and the ottoman. The nephew was going to sit on the sofa, and stepped right on the bitch, not seeing her. She snapped and growled at the nephew. She did not break his skin, and I'm uncertain if her teeth even made contact. But, it was a very clear snarl and snap. Now, normally, when a dog snaps or snarls at a child, one would obviously correct the dog. However, in this case, this particular child has stepped on this dog several times in the past, does not watch where he is going (at 8, I believe that he is more than capable of being more careful), and the bitch had had enough. She was clearly telling my nephew "HEY! Watch where you put your feet! They hurt, dammit!!!". I explained to my nephew that this is what the dog was trying to communicate to him, and that he should be more careful around the dogs. A few minutes later, the bitch was still on the floor in the same place, but now the nephew was sitting on the sofa, and letting his legs dangle down. His feet came within inches of the bitch's head, and she growled. At this point, I told my nephew that he had stepped on the dog enough times that she was now nervous about his feet and didn't want them anywhere near her. I also made the dog move and go sleep somewhere else, which is what I should have done the first time.

Because of these repeated episodes, she has little tolerance for this particular boy. He is one of those kids where you tell him not to do something, and five seconds later, he's doing it again!!!! Grrrrrrr! Sometimes I want to bite him myself!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

So, I have to make sure that *I* keep the dogs out of his way when he is at our house. The reason is that I would rather prevent certain situations than have to correct them.

Another thing this child did was sneak up on my Lab and scare him. I told him VERY sternly that under NO CIRCUMSTANCES was he EVER to scare the dogs, and that this is a good way to get bitten. Well, one day, I was outside on the other side of the six foot fence, straightening up the recycling area. My Lab was on the other side of the fence from me, just standing there sniffing the air, waiting for me to come back. My nephew came around the corner, up behind the dog, and attempted to startle him. When I came out from the other side of the fence and scolded my nephew, he DENIED the whole thing, even though I had seen it with my own eyes!!! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I have two daughters that have grown up with dogs, and are very respectful and would NEVER mistreat or misbehave around the dogs. They are great with our dogs, and I completely trust them. But this nephew really ticks me off sometimes. I have to remind myself "He is only 8.....he is only 8...he is only 8...". I have shown him how to play with the dogs properly, and have attempted to educate him on how to be safe around dogs.

My point is, that you have to look at it from the dog's point of view sometimes. Sometimes, it is the *child* who is not behaving appropriately around the dog, eliciting the aggressive response. It's important to keep the child away from the dog if you know that the child is likely to misbehave.

In this particular instance, my bitch was reacting reasonably, and for me to have punished or corrected her would not have made any sense to her at all, nor would it have been fair. Simply making her go sleep in a different area with little to no foot traffic was really the best solution (along with reminding my nephew AGAIN that he needs to look where he puts his feet!!!).

Sorry for such a long post. I realize that there are some differences between what you posted and my experience, but I do see some similarities, too. I hope this has been helpful.