To me it's pretty much the same . Yours sounds more like the stereotypical food aggression situation where the dog is growling over the food bowl while eating .

For me , as long as the room she's being fed in is a room where it can be free of people walking in. I would do everything that the handler as been doing minus the pat on the flank . Leave room . Make sure noone goes in room . Come back in a few minutes and remove empty food bowl . Pretty painless .

 Quote: Mike Arnold

Ms. Barrows,

I don't see much difference in your post and the original OP.

I don't see much difference either. I guess what I am getting at is, when do you, as a trainer, make the distinction between food aggression and pack leadership issues. And do you treat them differently? (not you specifically Mike; in general)

To me, what I described seems like an adolescent testing the waters. If you don't correct in that situation (either verbally or with a leash correction), aren't you sending a message to the pup that you will back off when he/she growls?

I don't mess w/ my dog's food, but I have made a real point to touch her gently every time I feed her, after she is released to eat. I can bump into her and walk around her and get no reaction from her. If she did react, I feel like I would have to correct for this. (not giving advice, btw, just what I would do w/ my own dog)

That's pretty much what we've been discussing . I think that is the most common concern with many ,if they allow this . I've dealt with many dominant dogs . My current on the extreme edge . I found that as long as you maintain good OB and pack structure practices there is not a problem . For me, too many people think if they allow that growling over the food that everything's going to fall apart . I haven't found it to be a problem .

I will take this a step further and hopefully it doesn't set off an arguement . First I used to train PSD's for those who don't know me and they were all adult dogs , GSD' and Mals mostly .

I used to have the mind set that ALL growling is a challenge to me or the handler of the dog and it was to be dealt with . Many times it turned into a battle where someone got bit . That reinforced in my mind that I was doing the right thing because the dog usually turned on the handler and that proved to me the dog was being dominant and we did the right thing .

Well as I trained more dogs along came some dogs that growled all the time . No matter how much blood was spilled on the human end no matter how many times we had a come to God session with the dog they continued to growl . Many times it increased the growling and almost always it damaged the relationship between them and we had to fix new problems with the dog . Handler aggression and handler sensitivity .

These stubburn dogs that we could not stop from growling forced us to look at what we were doing . What was found was in many case we were correcting a dog that was just growling . He was obediant , behaved well otherwise , he just growled . So now in many cases (not all) we look at " Is the dog doing what it's told? " . If it is, growl all you like as long as the dog is doing what it's told and behaving in a good manner , growl , growl , growl .

Here's what had happened in the past and I'll give a common situation .This was usually in the beginning of training . Now this is usually outside with lots of stimuli , other dogs , people(usually loud cops) , birds , you name it .

The handler during an obediance excersise tells the dog to sit and the DOG DOES but growls or we are just standing there waiting to begin something and the dog growls . Didn't matter because back then ALL growling needs to be dealt with because it's a challenge to the handler .

So the dog just got done sitting as told but now we tell the handler to give the dog a correction because of the growling , can be physical or verbal . Handler does and the dog growls more . Now physical correction comes in . Doesn't stop it , more physical correction .Dog growls more and more . Before long the dog protects himself and bites handler . Now back then we read it as: " Yep see dog was testing for dominance ; glad we dealt with it now !" .

In those situations the dog was just verbalizing his discomfort . Could have been because of he was learning a new obediance excercise , the other dogs and people around , could be anything . All he was doing was showing his discomfort . But we screwed up and had a big battle for nothing . Plus in this case had a heck of a time getting the dog to sit again or trust it's handler .

I'm not saying the growling shouldn't be a concern . It should be . But try to look at what may be causing it . Is it a threat for dominance or is it discomfort with a situation . In the case of growling over food is it just his survival instinct to protect it's food or is it something else . The big clue is if the dog is doing what it's told or being disobiediant while he's growling . In most cases I tend to deal with the disobediance I don't care (much) about the growling as long as you are doing what you are told and behaving . If I'm doing obediance with my dog and he growls I don't back down I just keep doing obediance and deal with his disobediance if it arises . I don't view all growling as disobediance , misbavior or bad behavior for that manner . I view it as a form of communication .

Again , I'm not saying growling shouldn't be a concern or dealt with . I just feel that the belief that ALL growling is bad , a challenge to pack strucuter and must dealt with immediately is an outdated belief .

For me I don't care if a dog growls around food I care if he's disobediant or well behaved . Now for many folks they view all or most growling as disobediance there lies the rub .

Jim, I do agree with you. I have no experience with PSD's or PPD's, but I do have general experience with dogs of my own, and various rescues. And, in my experience, some dogs are just more gabby than others. Some dogs grumble and growl and "talk" when they are anticipating something (food), or just doing something (sit, down, off, come). As long as they are doing what I want them to do, they can "yak" all they want.
Then again, some dogs don't make much noise at all.
I have one of each right now, my male is talker, my female is not.

Mine is pretty talkative in general.
She has little grumbles, grunts and groans that accompany a lot of things she does.

Usually it's a sign of contentment with her.

Jim, thanks. Good explanation of your approach (and the background behind it), and very interesting also.

I just want to add one more thing because I may have left the impression that if a dog growls and does NOT do a command that I would now correct the dog for growling .

For me , I don't correct for the growling even if he's being disobediant while growling . I correct the disobediance itself(whatever command he didn't do) . If I tell him to sit and he knows that command clearly and growls and doesn't sit , I go in and correct him for not sitting and train til I get a nice quick proper sit .

That's just my style not saying it should be everyones .

Again, I've got to agree with Jim on this one. My first instinctual response to the question was "well don't pet the dog!" kind of like the ol' "doctor, my arm hurts when I do this"... "well then don't do that!" idea.

But to expand on this, I'd ALSO (while I was not petting the dog and keeping out of his face when he's eating) be working on a recall that could call him off of anything. At a later date I'd begin practicing said recall during dinner, and if he didn't obey at THAT TIME I am correcting the disobedience, not correcting his defending of his food. Just like I'd correct lack of recall off a sandwich wrapper in the park, or preoccupation with food bits on the FR field.

I could be wrong here, but I believe that while in a pack alpha members eat first, I don't think that GENERALLY alpha walks around taking food from lower ranking pack members for the heck of it. Now, could alpha do so? Perhaps. But just like your manager at work COULD abuse their power, it doesn't mean they should or do. And when they do, you don't respect them, you just become angry, right?

I sort of liken the food issue to that. Food is the one thing that any dog, even the lowest ranking member of the pack, will defend. If alpha doesn't ALLOW food, that's one thing (ie. not enough food, alpha eats and lower pack members go hungry) but I think that in dog pack structure taking food once given would be viewed as an abuse of power. No?