I think we are misunderstanding one another.

I do not question whether or not a dog will bite a man. Given the amount of dog attacks in the world, it would be foolhardy to insist otherwise.

What I question is whether a dog will bite a man in the manner we wish, in the circumstance we wish, for the reasons we wish.

The dog may well bite, for his own reasons.
This becomes a liability, then , since a "natural" biter would be difficult to predict.
His reasons being his own (and prehaps incompatible with ours), may bite in situations unacceptable to ours, as well as failing to bite when we would desire him to do so.

A biting dog does not a protection dog make.

Ergo the natural instincts of the livestock guardian.
Posture first, attack/take on if necessary.

I'm not talking about a protection dog Alyssa. I think maybe thats where this got way layed. The op is not asking after a ppd, but a natural home fires guardian.

Who said anything about an unstable biter as a protection dog?

Right, but posturing/attacking against what?

A threat on the pack.
Easy, black and white for the dog.

Do you want a social butterfly, or a guardian?

Randy

Michelle -

Your posts were great. Really all I've been expecting is a dog that would put on a visual display that would scare off the majority of baddies. To get either the warning that someone is there, and, should they break in, some sort of activity that bought some extra time to get to one of our own weapons, the alarm system panic switch, an exit, etc. is, I believe, more of a realistic request. I'm just trying to clarify what I should expect, generally, from certain breeds, and then alter my research accordingly.

I think Randy's hitting the nail on the head with the description of the livestock guardian protection behavior...at least from what I've come across in my research. I understand that the livestock guardians are more independent, and choose how to act and when to act, where as a GSD, trained, is more likely to be switched on and off by the handler. However, I also believe a dog will learn, through upbringing and the conduct of its owner, what is normal and what is not. I certainly recognize legal liability as a concern, but I have this concern about many breeds...especially those who are capable of dealing out large amounts of damage...especially those who look imposing...and especially those on dangerous dogs lists...because you know those latter two factors would be exploited in court very zealously - "not only did you have a dog willing to bite, but it is a dog you know to be capable of damage, a dog known to be a 'attack' dog, and a dog known generally as being dangerous so much so that even insurance companies won't cover you"...and other such garbage propaganda.

I'm not necessarily leaning one way or another with the livestock guardians, but I have confidence, with the amount of pizza delivery guys the pup will see, that he will learn they are not bad guys. However, if one decides to, God forbid, push in the door and taking the lady of the house, I'd like my dog to be alarmed by this, and recognize that she doesn't like this, and to take some sort of appropriate action. At that point, the dog could make all the independent decisions he wanted so long as it ended up with her safe. He's on my property, breaking laws, and my duty of safety to him, at least in my current jurisdiction is, I believe, nil.

I don't particularly want a social butterfly. I'm not a person who trusts easily, and I'd like to find a dog that matches that aspect of my personality. If, in order to get the above sort of characteristics mentioned in this post and prior, the GSD and Rottie and others of that type are the only way to go, then I know what my short list should be. However, if livestock guardians can get the job done as well, then I've got some more to learn about them, too. It seems the internet has a great deal of information on the internet from the iams site, to dogbreedinfo.com, to animalplanet.com, to http://www4.ncsu.edu/~n51ls801/securitydogs.html, and others, that tend to support what Randy's saying. It's just that there's also well-informed individuals like Alyssa who seem to go in the opposite direction, and, it's hard to really know for sure. Sure there's situations where a livestock guardian pins an intruder while the owner calls the cops, etc., but I don't know if that's the norm or the exception, or even if it's a true story. However, given all the material that says they're very protective, capable of guarding, etc....I don't know.

There are concerns with livestock guardians, though, as it seems as though they are potentially more likely to be a liability around, say, a rough-housing child playing with your child, a neighbor's dog who wandered onto your property, etc. They are purportedly excellent with anyone already considered part of the pack, but if these other outliers come about.... My inclination, though, is that, with enough socialization and experience as a pup, the dog will learn, generally, what is a threat and what isn't.

I wonder, for the non-livestock guardians, how would they behave independent of their handler? Say a neighbor's dog, or some strange person, did come on the property, and made advances toward your child playing in the yard....? I would assume the GSD or what have you would sound the alarm and approach the intruder, no? Then a display of discontent would follow. But a properly trained GSD would or would not allow himself to make the decision to bite without the handler's command?

Please forgive my ignorance re. formal protection training. You are all being so informative and helpful in providing me information to answer these questions which I've had for some time now and really couldn't seem to find definitive answers to online.

 Quote: Vito Polera

There are concerns with livestock guardians, though, as it seems as though they are potentially more likely to be a liability around, say, a rough-housing child playing with your child, a neighbor's dog who wandered onto your property, etc. They are purportedly excellent with anyone already considered part of the pack, but if these other outliers come about.... My inclination, though, is that, with enough socialization and experience as a pup, the dog will learn, generally, what is a threat and what isn't.

Vito, regarding this post, I think your expectations are too high. Dogs are thinking animals, but not at the level that you are describing. Even the most highly trained animal can and will break commands and will be a capable of biting in all of the situations you describe. The problem is that, realistically, any dog you will have will not be trained to the level that you are describing (will wait for a command to attack in the face of danger). Nor stop when asked. There are few police dogs that are capable of this. We had a bad bite in a SWAT application at our department just Sunday where the Mal bit one of the SWAT team in the crotch and inner, upper arm and would not out. The team member was crouching at the doorway and not even watching the dog and did not provoke the bit, it was just a combination of inexperienced handler and dog (one year together), lack of training, and a charged situation.

 Quote:

I wonder, for the non-livestock guardians, how would they behave independent of their handler? Say a neighbor's dog, or some strange person, did come on the property, and made advances toward your child playing in the yard....? I would assume the GSD or what have you would sound the alarm and approach the intruder, no? Then a display of discontent would follow. But a properly trained GSD would or would not allow himself to make the decision to bite without the handler's command?

Again, very high expectations. A dog is a dog, and if you are not there, and especially in a real threat, will do what his instincts tell him. Any dog you will have, if the genetics are there will likely bite or put on a good show, but it is the manner in which all of these things happen that the training will make or break you.

I think it is just about everybody’s dream to have that dog (insert any breed) that will love the family, be social enough to recognize only real threats, and will defend the family from all bad guys with an intelligence that will prevent bad bites. That is asking a lot from any breed but especially those off breeds that are few in number and even fewer in exceptional dogs.

What you want for a protection dog is a dog that can be proofed against situations. Quinn is bite trained, but not proofed against real life. We were sitting at Starbucks when an eccentric woman wearing a witches hat (red) and a huge cloak, as well as every piece of plastic jewelry within 5 miles came walking up in a shuffling manner. She wanted to pet the well behaved dog because “All dogs love me!!!” He went berserk! He saw a threat where there was none. She was harmless and not going to do anything at all, and even began crying when he didn’t like her. I can’t expect him to rationalize the way he needs to. He just thought there was a threat. It is the same with the kids playing in the yard. He can’t rationally decide who is the bad kid that wants to beat my boy up and who is the kid that is roughhousing for fun, and all dogs coming onto the property would be subject to search harmless or not. Very strict training will help in these situations, but not much more.

Those stories you hear of the lab saving the family and the St Bernard laying on the bad guy until the police show are rare and often exaggerated if true at all. If it were the norm or typical, or to be expected, they would be utilized in that capacity by professionals (military, police, security, etc&hellip Some, I would never trust around my children. The Akita is one. My uncle has had many (5 or 6) and a police friend has two, and all were dominant, aloof, and independent to a fault, not family dogs or a breed I would want around young children. This is an example of a dog that is hard to train and very capable of aggression. Very Chow like personality. I also know many GP, and all were big balls of fluff. Sweet dogs that showed zero signs of anything more than a little territorial behavior.

What I want in a dog, is a dog that I can trust to be around my children and their friends. One that will bark a scare a bad guy away while alerting me to the threat, and one that wants to please me and work closely with me and is easily trained. For anything above and beyond that, I would expect to pay top dollar for a fully protection trained and proofed adult dog. But then I would likely end up paying upwards of $10,000 for a wish that may not even work out.

You asked about the Rotts I have. With Quinn, he is a real and serious dog. He will bite, and unfortunately this has been tested in real life. He is dominant but friendly, until you cross HIS line, and few are able to see that line. He is really a liability, but through intensive training is a great dog. He does everything you talk about wanting, but until you have that, you really don’t know what it is. He is up while the kids are playing, guests are over, and, well, a lot. He and my SO don’t get along and I keep him away from dogs because he may decide they are not in their place. My female that passed was a nerve bag that would alert bark and scare anyone off and would bite out of fear. She loved most and was more than enough protection in the sense that very few would cross her after seeing her display. Some I have fostered were goofballs that would love anything, and some that were afraid of their own shadow. I love this breed. The energy level matches my own; I love the attitudes, and the goofiness. I love the appearance and the coat. I will always buy working line dogs and from proven stock to stack the odds in my favor, but will always buy this breed.

 Quote: JessicaKromer

What I want in a dog, is a dog that I can trust to be around my children and their friends. One that will bark a scare a bad guy away while alerting me to the threat, and one that wants to please me and work closely with me and is easily trained. For anything above and beyond that, I would expect to pay top dollar for a fully protection trained and proofed adult dog. But then I would likely end up paying upwards of $10,000 for a wish that may not even work out.

Jessica, what a great post! You offer good insight into how a dog does and doesn't think, and I think you got to the crux of the issue with the above quote.

Just a note to the OP; with all the talk about attributes of specific breeds, don't forget that when it comes down to it, it's the individual dog that you will be training and living with...

I am by no means an expert yet. Through all the readings I have read, most dog psychologists will tell you, you can't have both. you can either have a guard dog or a family dog, but not both. The most popular source I have read was Cesar Millan.