I have to say Kristel is very articulate on this subject.

Patti, what was your goal(s) for the litters you bred with known faults in the parent(s)?

If you are referring to me Krystal I have only had ONE dog with dysplasia. That is my current dog Stryker. So if it IS me you are talking about I am not sure where you got the numbers you did.
AND as I have said all of my dogs have OFA clearances. What would you have done different?

 Quote: patti neelans

If you are referring to me Krystal I have only had ONE dog with dysplasia. That is my current dog Stryker. So if it IS me you are talking about I am not sure where you got the numbers you did.
AND as I have said all of my dogs have OFA clearances. What would you have done different?

These numbers too? From your own site?

"little more then half of one litter (four I think) that couldn't make it. And these are what she admits to. ... We won't count the admited hard to bring along underweight small litter of the last breeding."

Patti, I know you feel that you are taking heat because you were upfront about thinking it's OK to breed faults if you disclose it.

But it's not "being honest" that is bringing you criticism.

This is a hard topic for me to address without making a butt out of myself...but I'm going to try.

The dog you see in my sig picture, Patti, is the result of people who think the way you do. Titles throughout the pedigree, fantastic drive, great working ability and temperament...dream dog, right? Just the kind of dog breeders like to produce.

Except somewhere along the way a lot of people ignored the small stuff...like ectropion. I mean, how bad is it, really, if the eye lids roll out just so long as the dog is fantastic in every other respect. He looks a little sad and weepy-eyed but that's not such a big deal, right?

Itchy dog? Well shoot, dogs scratch and anyway it's only for a couple months in the summer, my allergies are bothering me right now, too, and Heck! A Benedryl does the trick, right? No biggie and it was only that one dog (that I'm aware of).

Hip Dysplasia? Harder to nail this one down since parents are OFA clear and who knows how the dog was kept once it left the kennel? Still, out of umpteen litters only one or two dogs had HD (that I'm aware of) and the rest turned out just great! Great form and great working ability!

Turning a blind eye (no pun intended) to a fault is what many... MANY...breeders do. They play the odds and they may win in the short term but it's the dogs and the breed who crap out in the long term.

The dog in my sig pic is one who crapped out.

He's just 3 years old and has 3 thought-to-be genetic conditions: HD, allergies, and ectropion. All the breeders, past and present, who were involved in the making of my dog, True, did just what you're doing now and this dog...my dog... has literally SUFFERED because of it.

Sorry, but I can't condone what you've done. I think knowingly breeding faults is both irresponsible and reprehensible.

 Quote: sarah morris

... somewhere along the way a lot of people ignored the small stuff...like ectropion. I mean, how bad is it, really, if the eye lids roll out just so long as the dog is fantastic in every other respect. He looks a little sad and weepy-eyed but that's not such a big deal, right? ... Itchy dog? Well shoot, dogs scratch and anyway it's only for a couple months in the summer, my allergies are bothering me right now, too, and Heck! A Benedryl does the trick, right? No biggie and it was only that one dog (that I'm aware of). ... Turning a blind eye (no pun intended) to a fault is what many... MANY...breeders do. They play the odds and they may win in the short term but it's the dogs and the breed who crap out in the long term. ... All the breeders ... who were involved in the making of my dog, True, did just what you're doing now and this dog...my dog... has literally SUFFERED because of it.... I can't condone what you've done. I think knowingly breeding faults is both irresponsible and reprehensible.

I feel the same way.

I'm glad the topic came up, because it goes far beyond Patti.

From the rescue end of things, as well as from the POV of having dogs whose parents were bred so young that allergies had not yet made themselves known (and let's face it; even if the allergies were known about, chances are great that people who bred the dogs as young as these were would have completely ignored allergies in their "breeding stock"), it enrages me that anything other than breeding to improve the breed is used as a reason.

I've been studying canine allergies for a long time. Ed is right about over-vaccinating as a big trigger for allergies. Environmental pollution and allergen levels are factors as well. But allergic responses are also hugely genetic.

And the folks on this board who suffer with their miserable dogs through itching-to-the-point-of-bleeding, loss of sleep, secondary infections of skin and ears, scratch tests, desensitizing injections -- and may I add the huge financial drain that accompanies all this -- probably don't see breeding an allergic dog the same way that the breeder(s) did.

But far more serious faults -- both physical health and temperament -- are regarded just as casually by some breeders!

Just one tiny area of the whole "breeding faults" topic.

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: sarah morris

... somewhere along the way a lot of people ignored the small stuff...like ectropion. I mean, how bad is it, really, if the eye lids roll out just so long as the dog is fantastic in every other respect. He looks a little sad and weepy-eyed but that's not such a big deal, right? ... Itchy dog? Well shoot, dogs scratch and anyway it's only for a couple months in the summer, my allergies are bothering me right now, too, and Heck! A Benedryl does the trick, right? No biggie and it was only that one dog (that I'm aware of). ... Turning a blind eye (no pun intended) to a fault is what many... MANY...breeders do. They play the odds and they may win in the short term but it's the dogs and the breed who crap out in the long term. ... All the breeders ... who were involved in the making of my dog, True, did just what you're doing now and this dog...my dog... has literally SUFFERED because of it.... I can't condone what you've done. I think knowingly breeding faults is both irresponsible and reprehensible.

I feel the same way.

I'm glad the topic came up, because it goes far beyond Patti.

From the rescue end of things, as well as from the POV of having dogs whose parents were bred so young that allergies had not yet made themselves known (and let's face it; even if the allergies were known about, chances are great that people who bred the dogs as young as these were would have completely ignored allergies in their "breeding stock"), it enrages me that anything other than breeding to improve the breed is used as a reason.

I've been studying canine allergies for a long time. Ed is right about over-vaccinating as a big trigger for allergies. Environmental pollution and allergen levels are factors as well. But allergic responses are also hugely genetic.

And the folks on this board who suffer with their miserable dogs through itching-to-the-point-of-bleeding, loss of sleep, secondary infections of skin and ears, scratch tests, desensitizing injections -- and may I add the huge financial drain that accompanies all this -- probably don't see breeding an allergic dog the same way that the breeder(s) did.

But far more serious faults -- both physical health and temperament -- are regarded just as casually by some breeders!

Just one tiny area of the whole "breeding faults" topic.

And I'm in total agreement here as well. I don't know of any respectable breeders with experience who think the idea of breeding a fault is an acceptable practice.

I've worked with rescue too, and it gave me an interesting perspective on the consequences of careless breeding. Real, live animals suffer in a tangible way when we are careless. I take that very seriously.

 Quote: Patti Neelans

What would you have done different?

I would not have bred a dog with a congenital eye defect, for starters. And I wouldn't have a reactive dog or descendant of a reactive dog in my breeding program.

Ok I think before people pass judgement they need to have all the facts. First and for the FINAL time I did NOT knowingly breed a dysplastic dog! Period! I would never want to see one of my dogs or any other dog go thru what Stryker has.

As far as losing 4 pups. I have no idea where this information is coming from as I never have posted any of this on a public forum (at least that I remember). So someone who knows me must be lurking around here and giving out information without giving out all the facts. Yes I lost 4 pups from my first litter. The bitches milk did not immediatly come in. I assumed (wrongly) that since these were large robust pups that they (9 of them) were just nursing her dry. 3 started to fail in less than 24 hrs. i took them to the vet where we discover the problem and saved the other 5. The fourth pup (who was the largest and strongest) was doing well at first but mom didn't seem to want to let him nurse. I took him to the vet (a repro specialist BTW) and she could find nothing wrong with him on exam. Unfortunately he died. I had a necropsy done on him and we discovered pus in his belly. It was naval ill that went internal. There were NO external signs. This had NOTHING to do with the breedability of this bitch and was just sucky things that sadly happen. I was prepared with her second litter with bottles and formula in case history should repeat itself. It didn't. Her milk came in everybody was born strong and healthy and stayed that way!

As for my last litter with small pups. Yes they were small for this breed. Why? Who knows?? I sat and had a long talk about this with the repro specialist. The causes could be many.

This was the first bitch I raw fed thru the pregnancy. Could I have made mistakes in her diet. Sure

Could she have had some sort of stress during a critical time in her pregnancy that I was unaware of. Sure

Could it have been a fluke. Sure

Could there be something inherantly wrong with her carrying a litter. Sure

Could this have been abad genetic match between these two dogs. Sure.

I questioned this very heavily. have you seen a bitch produce a small birth weight litter and come back and produce a normal litter? YES!

Bitches have produced normal litters and then produced a bad or low birthweight litter or even lost whole litters.

These things happen and many times you have NO control over it.

I am assuming that based on what has been said here that those of you who have bred (if any of you have) have absolutely pristine/perfect dogs. That they meet the breed standard to the letter with absolutley no issues what so ever. And that you have somehow managed to find the same in the dog that you bred to.

And am I also to assume that those of you who do not breed but go to breeders for your pets/working dogs go to breeders who have the same. ABSOLUTELY no faults of any kind what so ever?

Remeber we can SCREEN for all kinds of things. But if we took every dog/bitch that tested/screened positive for some "heritable" disease or that was not absolutelyperfect the breed standard (and whos interpretation of any standard do you go by?)we would eliminate about 99% of our breeding stock from ALL breeds.

Now THAT would make PETA and the HSUS VERY happy. Seeing as they want ALL breeding of ALL domestic animals to cease.

Genetics are NOT an exact science. Lets say for arguments sake you find that perfect bitch and the perfect dog to breed them to. No screenable heritable diseases, meets the breed standard to the letter. Perfect temperaments (for whatever you breed for). There is ABSOLUTELY NO guarantee that those two dogs seperatly (with another animal) or together will reproduce themselves! Something undesirable may crop up from generations back that you had no control over. You select your dogs the best that you can and then keep your fingers crossed. It's a genetic role of the dice. But I am assuming (maybe wrongly on this forum) that you would not eliminate those dogs from the gene pool because they produced a litter (all or some)of pups with undesireable traits or faults.

And for the record Chynna sees just fine, has NO problems from the cataracts. This is a condition that is causing NO adverse affects in the dog at all. And in actuality based on the research that I did several years ago they really do NOT know how this condition is inherited.

 Quote: patti neelans

I am assuming that based on what has been said here that those of you who have bred (if any of you have) have absolutely pristine/perfect dogs. That they meet the breed standard to the letter with absolutley no issues what so ever. And that you have somehow managed to find the same in the dog that you bred to.

There are no pristine, perfect dogs, but when a health or temperament issue does crop up, it ends there. I don't make excuses about why it's okay to breed a dog with an issue. I suck it up, and move on. I don't breed that dog no matter how much time or money I have invested in it because my whole point is to breed BETTER dogs, not just more of them.

I hold no illusions that you're going to stop doing what you're doing. In fact, I think it's likely that you're probably going to end up on another board where the folks are a little less keen and maybe the standards a little more lax. In that way you'll have the support that you need to continue telling yourself that what you're doing is okay. You do what you do.

My concern is that you were representing yourself as "the voice of the ethical breeder" in a thread about bad breeders, each post more disconcerting than the last. I don't want a newb considering becoming a breeder, coming along at some point and reading this thread, getting the wrong idea. I don't want somebody with genuinely good intentions, thinking that this ludicrous notion of breeding faults (it's okay if you disclose it?!) is a legitimate and ethical practice.

So,

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

Patti, what was your goal(s) for the litters you bred with known faults in the parent(s)?

In this breed we are lacking many things (IMO). For one (mostly in AKC) we have focused so much on the head that the body structure has gone to hell. An example of this is dogs coming out that are VERY long in body (as compared to height). Almost looking like a doxi/rottie cross. From a working standpoint this is a dog that is like to crop up with back injuries over the long run. They cannot hold a solid top line in movement and many times jsut standing still.

They have also way over sized this breed and bred for really soft temperaments and absolutely NO drive.

I loved the sport of agility and did it with my first rottie. I wanted to continue with the breed in that sport but could find nobody out there breeding for a smaller more athletic dog with drive.

Chynna had the drive and was structurally sound with good body balance. Yes she could be dog reactive at times, but it was when she was younger and was not by any means completely out of control. it was easily resolved with training and focus classes.

When she was diagnosed with the cataracts I immediately called my breeder (I won't mention names) who had bred and imported rotties for over 30 yrs and was (and still is) very big in the protection sports and training. I asked if he knew of any other dogs in her lines with this condition. he didn't. I told him I was waffeling on breeding her. he asked me some questions:

Has she passed all of her other health clearances? YES.
Is she structurally and physically sound? YES
Does she have the drive you are looking for? YES

He said: "THEN BREED YOU DAMN DOG!!" He is an old schooler and said that they only screend for hips and elbows (even in Europe). He said with everything they look for now a days they are going to eliminate 99% of the breeding stock in existance. That was about 7 yrs ago.

I made sure the male that I bred to had passed all of his health clearances including (and in the case very import) his eyes. I specifically asked for that from his owner. he also had a rock solid temperament with AMAZING drive! He also had the medium size that I liked. All of Chynna's pups from both litters have rock solid temperaments.

A testament to this is Drako. You can go to my website to read about him. It was devoted (second) owners and good genetics that I believe allowed this dog to come thru what he did and be the wonderful STABLE dog that he is today. I am willing to bet many on this forum (and many other breeders out there) would not have done for this dog what I did. But I was NOT going to allow one of my pups to stay with an owner like that. This man lied to me from the get go and thankfully has been the only bad owner that I have sold to.