Lauren,By no means do I believe that papers represent "Quality"...of the individual dog.I'm sorry you took my post that way.My intent was to respond to Micheals statement about flawed breeding and to give an example of a papered dog that would have been considered "Flawed" by the first trainer. I love all dogs..each are individuals..each have heart. Candace

Lauren, I'm pretty sure that Candice said basically the same thing you did re: dogs with papers. At least that's what I got out of her post.

VanCamp, I'm pretty much with you in regards to the clicker in this situation; and I think the trainer is, too. First off I think it would be too difficult to hold/use the clicker, hold the treats, and be able to effectively use the leash for any corrections that were necessary; for me anyway. Secondly, I don't really see how the clicker can actually work in this situation, because I don't see when the appropriate time to click would be. Perhaps I'm just confused because I've never done any kind of clicker training before.

Michael, I'm getting the impression that you're not reading all the posts. If you're not, maybe you should before you actually post yourself. You're arguing a point that doesn't even exist in the context of this discussion.

Oh, and I have no idea what happened to the original poster! LoL

The clicker can work, you want to reward the dog the second he looks up at you. Then expand on that. . .longer. . .longer. . .longer.

Same thing that you are doing with the food reward, when the dog looks to you. . .you feed the dog and then lure away while chewing on the food.


Not, see other dog. . .put food in front of dog and lure away.


The only issue is I only have two hands. . .one hand on lead, one hand on chewy piece of food.

Wow, VanCamp, I would have never taken you to be a "clicker fan".... Hmm, I guess we all are seeing a softer side of you emerging <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

See that's where I got ya beat. I have four hands. One on leash, one on food, one on clicker, and one holding my cell phone while I talk into it. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Kristen,I read your post about problems heeling and what happened with "Therapy".Put on top of that what happened in the park which happened as a pup. At some point Gypsy looked to you as a leader dog/mom and you couldn't protect her..maybe the park incident. she was left with fear because of lack of trust.Then add a prong(which I am not against)and it created more distrust which added to her fear...and lack of attention on you. Point blank..A dog Must know that the handler/owner is the leader and the dog will trust in that...and or respect the conditioning/training.There are ways of showing dominance through training on many levels.But First your dog has to trust you.Can you lay her on her side and lay over her without her wanting to get up?Add to this..being able to touch her everywhere..fingers between foot pads..rubbing her teeth etc.If she has a tail you can pick up while in this position..do you feel Gypsy tightening it down? I know this SOUNDS crazy...but it works.PRAISE her for each step of this that she relaxes in.BUT don't put it on her at one time.When you have her on lead and you are at a stop..Will she allow you to pick up either of her front paws/legs..without making a back..or showing restriction (pulling it away). Ask your trainer..about this Let me know.Candace

Dog aggression is usually a temperamental flaw and will manifest itself if the handler and dog have leadership/comfort issues or not.

Robert,I agree with the "usually" a temperment flaw as you stated.That is why I am so very against puppy farms;anyone selling a breed without papers or anyone that crosses a male and a female..just for sales.There is no way to research the genetics behind the pup.It may be that Gypsy came from a breeding that was deeply set..in aggressiveness.Perhaps Gypsy is not a result of this..and her trainer can help her. The aggressive factor in a pup can sometimes be misunderstood.I have five shepherds..all under two years of age..and one approaching four.Each have matured differently. If "Jazena" at 3 mos of age was in someones backyard and they had no understanding of that "Fight" within her..she would have definetly been handled wrong.She would be typed an aggressive dog..or one with a flaw.She is a very loving dog with a solid temperment.Let me end by saying..genetic drives are always there in any dog just like people.Enviroment plays a great part...early on.We are formatted as children..just as pups.Don't think for a moment that dogs can not remember "When they were a child/pup"...They do.Every life experience is remembered.Candace

 Quote:

At some point Gypsy looked to you as a leader dog/mom and you couldn't protect her..maybe the park incident. she was left with fear because of lack of trust.Then add a prong(which I am not against)and it created more distrust

Candace, she was working with the prong at 6 months of age, because the slip collar did not phase her in the least, no matter how hard the correction was, and I was uncomfortable having to administer such a hard correction. The park incident did not occur and she did not start to exhibit any form of dominance or dog aggression until she was a year and a half old.

To answer your questions:

"Can you lay her on her side and lay over her without her wanting to get up?"

Yes


"Add to this..being able to touch her everywhere..fingers between foot pads..rubbing her teeth etc."

Yep, no problems there. I've done these things since she was a puppy.


"If she has a tail you can pick up while in this position..do you feel Gypsy tightening it down?"

She only tightens it down during a bath, but I imagine that's because she doesn't want the water to squirt up her behind. lol


"When you have her on lead and you are at a stop..Will she allow you to pick up either of her front paws/legs..without making a back..or showing restriction."

But of course. Now, she does not like for both her front feet to be lifted off the ground at the same time; she has been afraid of being picked up since I got her; but she has never growled, tried to bite, or shown any aggressive behaviors when she has been picked up or her front feet lifted off the ground. She does not struggle when picked up. She just dead-weights. I worked extensively with her as a puppy to get her over this fear, but something awful must have happened to her before I got her, because she is still uncomfortable being picked up. We don't pick her up much nowadays - she is 60 pounds after all - lol


Oh, and just as an update, she is doing VERY well with heeling. I worked her for a week and a half just on the flat collar, and have now started using the prong (which I added a link to so it wouldn't be quite as snug). I am only using it when she lags, and just every so lightly, to encourage her to stay up with me. She only begins to lag when she *thinks* I'm getting ready to turn, or when she *thinks* I'm getting ready to tell her to sit or down. I have not been correcting her, or allowing her to self-correct, if she happens to go a little wide in the turns, because with time she'll get better at that. She already has. Lastnight she did exceptionally well. The trainer said she should be as close as possible when heeling and, even though it isn't desirable in competition, touching is not undesirable for our purposes. Lastnight, she stayed right up with me, and her shoulder was brushing against my leg almost the entire time. She even had her head up and wrapped around my thigh looking up at me like she should. I don't know if it had anything to do with the fact that it was dark and windy outside lastnight or not, but I was pleasantly surprised with her progress so far.

We'll just see how she does at the dog park tomorrow with those distractions in the distance.

Originally posted by VanCamp Robert:
Dog aggression is usually a temperamental flaw and will manifest itself if the handler and dog have leadership/comfort issues or not. I agree with this. Learning/conditioning can influence the degree to which the behavior will be expressed, however the potential is there because of biology.