Lou,

I don't disagree with you, but I'm curious. If high compulsion is not good for PSD and SAR dogs, then why is it good for pets? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sharon G. wrote: If high compulsion is not good for PSD and SAR dogs, then why is it good for pets?

***** One thing that high levels of compulsion do, whether they come from a pinch collar, a choke chain, a harsh voice or an Ecollar is to focus the dog’s attention on the handler. We frequently see dogs trained with high levels of Estim do “attention heeling” (where they look at the handler while heeling) even though this hasn’t been asked for in the training.

***** For a pet to have his attention focused on the handler is a good thing. Especially since most of them are out of control by the time a trainer gets to them anyway. Many problems, dog to dog aggression, fear of other dogs, aggression to human strangers are solved merely by putting a recall on a dog with an Ecollar. I think this occurs because it teaches the dog to focus on the handler rather than the outside world. The dog’s not as fearful (for example) of other dogs, because he’s not staring at them. getting loaded up as they get closer. His attention is on his handler. So his fear level drops.

***** But SAR and PSD’s often work VERY difficult scent problems. I think, and this view is shared by many notable PSD trainers, that if you focus the dog’s attention on the handler he won’t be the purest hunting animal that he can be. He’ll be concerned with getting a correction from the handler.

***** At least one other Ecollar trainer disagrees with me but he doesn’t believe in drive theory and has little or no experience with scent work, except very simple, very basic problems such as a dog finding his own toy.

***** That being said, I’d love to be proven wrong because the relative high levels of stimulation that are used in high compulsion training work faster than the lower levels I use for the PSD’s and the SAR dogs.

***** There’s soon to be an experienced SAR dog trainer who will be exposed to an approach using those relatively high levels of compulsion. After he’s used that approach a bit, if he thinks it’s appropriate, I’ll have to go take a look at his dogs and see for myself.

Sharon,
This is not ecollar specific, but I think you will find that, in general, working dogs have to be handled differently than pets and behaviors that would be problematic in pets are not only acceptable, but encouraged in working dogs, as in Lou's example.

Many problems, dog to dog aggression, fear of other dogs, aggression to human strangers are solved merely by putting a recall on a dog with an Ecollar.

True, but you don't want the dog to see the handler as the only safe place; even for a pet. With my Sheltie, I began this when he was very young and still clingy. It took a while before I could tell if he was really learning about the collar, or just staying by me cause of his insecurities. Also it seems like the first action (safe place) you teach them with the collar is the one they remember or depend on the most. Now my Sheltie is a little more independent. But if he feels e-stim from a distance, he automatically thinks it means come to me. He goes to his place on command with no problem. But I'd like him to do other things like go get his ball, or go to another person in the family on command. I've used the collar for all 3 types of commands: come, place, and stay in a position. Any suggestions?

Ok Lou,

Now my curosity is really up. Can you recomend some good reference materiel on "Low Stim" training. I couldn't bring myself to use high stim on my dogs, it just seems to harsh. I get very good results with "low" or no "stim" from a slip collaer on my dogs. Most of the time I have them trained for obedience before they are old enought to pu a slip collar on them. I can see some potential uses for that period of training converting to no lead work. I don't know that I would use it all the time though. I could see useing it like a long line though. Usually with my dogs they see the leash and get "depressed". It is like "I thought we were past this". So the leash for training is almost like a punishment, even if I don't correct. Once they got the idea again it comes right back off.

Now my curosity is really up. Can you recomend some good reference materiel on "Low Stim" training

*****Okay, here goes: http://www.dobbsdogs.com They have a great library of articles on e-collar training. Mike Lardy has a new tape out on E-collar introduction: http://www.totalretriever.com---www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog; great information
Ray McSoley is working on a book that teaches much on e-collar training: A Ray of Hope; Helping Dogs with People Problems. It's not out yet. http://www.mcsoley.com Tritronics is coming out with a new tape with Fred Hassen soon. Don't know if it's based on low stim though. Donn Yarnall is making a tape on e-collar training.

Once you begin using an e-collar, you'll find yourself using it for many things.

Oops! I ran those URLs together. Mike Lardy's web: http://www.totalretriever.com
Mark Plonsky info web site: http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog
Sorry! Don't know how to edit.

sharon g wrote: True, but you don't want the dog to see the handler as the only safe place; even for a pet. With my Sheltie, I began this when he was very young and still clingy. It took a while before I could tell if he was really learning about the collar, or just staying by me cause of his insecurities. Also it seems like the first action (safe place) you teach them with the collar is the one they remember or depend on the most. But if he feels e-stim from a distance, he automatically thinks it means come to me. He goes to his "place" on command with no problem. But I'd like him to do other things like go get his ball, or go to another person in the family on command. I've used the collar for all 3 types of commands: come, place, and stay in a position. Any suggestions?

***** Sharon think of introducing the Ecollar as introducing a new language. Imagine your feelings if you were dumped in the middle of Czechoslovakia this morning. (LOL, if you speak Czech, use another country for this discussion). You wouldn’t be able to order a meal or find the bathroom. You’d probably retreat a bit from everything. If you found a fellow English speaker you’d probably cling to that person a bit. Just as your Sheltie clings to you when a bit confused.

***** Some confusion is inevitable. If you work on the recall too much you get a dog that’s out of balance. This is easily fixed by doing some more work, so the dog learns that there is no such thing as a “safe place next to you.” I suggest the “sit.” Since that starts out with the dog sitting right next to you. It’s only a short time before the dog becomes “collar literate.” That means that he discovers that it’s the response to the command that shuts off the stimulation, not a safe place next to you. Cut down a touch on doing the recall for awhile until the dog becomes literate.

***** I also suggest working with an assistant who, using a leash, can keep the dog from returning to you, on the distance work on the sit, down and other commands. Just keep stimming and have the assistant guide the dog into the commanded position. This will prevent him from returning to you and convince him that it's not a "safe place" that turns off the stim, it's obedience to a command.

Richard Cannon wrote: Ok Lou, Now my curosity is really up. Can you recomend some good reference materiel on "Low Stim" training. I couldn't bring myself to use high stim on my dogs, it just seems to harsh.

***** I couldn’t agree more with you regarding the “high stimulation” approach that some people use.

***** Until about an hour ago I couldn’t recommend any material that used this method, other than the old Tri–Tronics tapes that have been out for years. BUT Donn Yarnall just left my house after showing me his new video that Dogtra put together. He uses PSD’s to make his points and there’s a lot more there than just Ecollar work, but the theories apply to any type of work. The video should be available around the first of September from the Dogtra website. I HIGHLY recommend it.

sharon g wrote: Tritronics is coming out with a new tape with Fred Hassen soon. Don't know if it's based on low stim though. Donn Yarnall is making a tape on e-collar training.

***** Fred does not use low levels of stimulation. He’ll probably read this and jump in with some comments that the level doesn’t matter but it’s “painfully” obvious that it does.

***** Oh, BTW, regarding the discussion about the Las Vegas Marshall’s K9, Cesar, and his handler, Butch Martin, that took place earlier in this thread... Butch and Cesar are featured quite prominently in Donn’s video. They’ve been fixed. You’ll see the dog zipping out for bites instead of balking and refusing to leave Butch’s side.

***** Donn’s video is intended for those who have some understanding of the Ecollar. It’s not for rank beginners, either to dog training or Ecollars. For that, refer to the videos that come with just about every Ecollar. But once you have a grasp of the material, the stuff is GREAT.

Lou says: I couldn’t agree more with you regarding the “high stimulation” approach that some people use.

Lou,
Glad to hear you say this! For a while I thought maybe you agreed with the "high stimulation" approach. Really want to get to your seminar. BTW, I got your e-mail, but don't have access to my web tv for a couple weeks. Want to read over the information you gave me, and get back to you with a bunch of questions.

Lou, just one question. None of your PSD's have ever balked on a go out with your(Donn Yarnels) methods? Never? Rich