Come on Castle, I hear you. I understand what you are saying. I own two e-collars myself and have used them with success. But a few things you have said are just a little off. One, I have no doubt that you have trained people to use the collars with no problems. But you can't convince me that you can give a training session over e-mail or the phone to some novice and expect them to go use the collar with success. Two many variables there big dog. Two, I am not wrong about the e-collars and problems that they cause in training. Of course I have seen more dogs harmed by prongs or zips, everybody uses them. I would be willing to bet that in the hands of the average joe more dogs, BY PERCENTAGE, have been messed up with the e-collar. There are lots of reasons that this happens, but it happens. And three, I flat out don't believe that people without a foundation of training dogs can use the e-collar in a proper way. The people that can would be the exception. Maybe you have seen more of these natural types than I because they were smart enough in the first place to come to you to learn. I'm not trying to kiss up, by the way. I just respect your experience. But I disagree with you on that point.

You are not going to change my mind here. I do think that we are real close in our opinions about the collar, but I just think it should be used by pros. That's it. My opinion is also influenced by my own dislike of compulsive methods. I don't think that average joe should be messing around with other compulsive tools either. Not untill he has learned to understand and read dog behavior. These people mess up dogs, no doubt in my mind. Bad helpers, trainers, handlers, friends, TDs, pro-trainers, whatever. You've seen it to. In the more serious and challenging types of training (Shutzhund, Protection, Ring, Police Service, SAR training, etc.) there is a greater level of knowledge necessary to succeed, and there is also a greater chance of -F-ing a dog up. With the e-collar you are just giving that person a more effective tool to -F- up with, unless he has the experience and teaching behind him not to. Ya, ya everybody starts out somewhere, I know that. But there is a right way and a wrong way in my opinion.

Right way: Learn training theory and method, experience training theory and method under supervision, gain understanding in dog behavior (in training) and learn to read a dog in order to apply the correct methods, and tools, at the correct times. If the foundation is not there, you are setting some folks up to fail. And fail at the expense of their dogs. I think that is the heart of my arguement.

Now that crap behind me, I am interested in your statement that any problems that are caused by the e-collar can be fixed with the e-collar. Will you explain that one to me. I would like to know more about that.

Thanks for putting up with the long ass post. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I stand by the opinion that they should only be used by somewhat advanced trainers. Novice trainers tend to be somewhat clueless with dog behavior, regardless of the advice and training they may receive. Understanding what a dog is thinking just takes time, experience, and a good bit of reading. Away from all the "dog training theory" that seems to riddle this discussion board, I'll give a real world example of a screw up I made. I thought it would be a swift idea to teach one of my dogs a long down by myself with my e-collar. When he goes to get up without my recall, I'll just zap'em right? Wrong!! He did'nt associate the shock with the getting up, he associated it with the DOWN. Wouldnt Platz for the rest of the night, and walked most of the way home between my legs looking around trying to figure out where that shock came from. Luckily this was easily remedied with a little positive reinforcement, and he was plopping right down with his ears up looking for a hot dog by the next morning. Don't get me wrong, this is an invaluable training tool IF USED CORRECTLY. I've had lots of success with it since, the key is to make SURE the dog understands WHY he received the correction, and what to do to avoid it.

Hello Lou. The truth of the matter being is that you cannnot screw a dog up by putting an e-collar on , just his traiining, I am not sure that is true in the real world. I have used the e-collar, and have no problems with it but on certain dogs you must be carefull using it. It is unrealistic to think that it is a cure all for everything and everybody. I agree that the my statement about the average Joe using the e-collar, could apply to any training collar, but a jerk from prong collar and someone holding the button down on level 5 is most likley going to have more of an imprint on a dogs mind set. Unrination because of fear is one example, another is a dog that has never turned on his handler, turning on his handler and mauling him for the fact that he did not like the electric shock and did not understand it. Giving people the imppression that it is more safe and humane then other training tools, I feel is a litte irresponsiable. There are dogs, that I and other trainers would not put an e-collar on, as the results may be counter-productive. This is not the case with all dogs, and I am sure that you have had good results using them, with your dogs and clients dogs, but I do feel that in most cases it is a more powerful training tool then most others.

HI All,
Been out of town for a bunch of days so I missed my chance. Being new to the post, I think most are saying the same thing. I think Lou's point is that w/ the correct "teacher" who knows what they are doing, a e-collar is easier to use than most other training tools. I have some folks who can't walk and chew gum let alone gather up lead, make a correction, turn around and let slack back out of a lead...much easier to push the button at the right time and level, even for a novice. The underlying factor being that the novice is taught correctly, when, where, how much and why. Yes a novice, or even "pro" idiot can mess up a dog BAD on a ecollar. But the same hopeless idiot can also hang one from a doorknob till they(dog) passes out or dies as well. Again, blame the trainer, not the tool. And as I have used it before...guns don't kill people, people kill people...then again, I always thought it was the bullets not realy the guns..LOL...yes I know..I have issues...LOL

Hmmmmmmmmm. . . (thinking, it's tough you know) I'll get back to this topic later.

VanCamp wrote: you can't convince me that you can give a training session over e-mail or the phone to some novice and expect them to go use the collar with success.

LC: Here’s the email I got from someone I did this with. Her dog had a cat-chasing problem. She had never before used an Ecollar. Before this, her dog tried to kill cats that he saw from 50 yards away.

“We worked at the cat thing for about 1 hour today and got within 6 feet when
she would not give up her stare so I moved her back a few feet (I like to
end with her succeeding). As I said she's a pretty tough/stubborn dog so I
figured this was going to take several sessions but I never had to go over
level 8 (normally she works at a 5-6) to get these results. I am very
pleased! Thanks again.”

LC: So while you may not be convinced, she was. Email is too hard, I’d wind up writing a book, so I have them phone.

VanCamp wrote: I am not wrong about the e-collars and problems that they cause in training.

LC: We disagree and we can’t both be right. Let’s call it different perception.

VanCamp wrote: I flat out don't believe that people without a foundation of training dogs can use the e-collar in a proper way.

LC: Well here you ARE wrong because I do it regularly. I show them how to teach the recall and I do the basic work on the dog. Then I have them do the movements and I handle the Ecollar. Then I put the TX unit into their hands and walk along with them as they stim the dog when appropriate. If they make mistakes of timing, I correct them. Then they practice for a week. When I come back, usually they have “Velcro dog” a natural response to teaching the recall this way. I show them how to teach the sit and then the sit at a distance. Then I have them handle the TX unit while getting the dog to sit. Then they practice for a week. When I come back we work on the down, the same way as before. Usually that’s it. They may call me up to ask a few questions but for the most part when they do this I turn their questions back on them and they discover that they have most of the answers. Most of my clients wind up training the “go to place” command and curing household problems with only assistance on the phone. They’re happy and so am I. I must be doing something right, I don’t advertise at all. All of my clients have come ONLY through word of mouth advertising.

VanCamp wrote: You are not going to change my mind here. I do think that we are real close in our opinions about the collar, but I just think it should be used by pros. That's it.

LC: VanCamp I can’t win all of the disagreements all of the time. I’ll settle for just a few minds changed one at a time. Don’t worry, your time is coming. LOL

VanCamp wrote: My opinion is also influenced by my own dislike of compulsive methods.

LC: I don’t think that driven dogs can be trained to reliable levels with positive methods only, other than dogs doing work that’s really play, such as detector dogs. I’ve issued a challenge worth $1,000 to anyone who can find me a patrol dog that can pass my stakeout test (http://www.uwsp.edu/psych/dog/LA/castle1.htm) that has been trained totally with positive methods. The challenge has been seen by thousands of people and no one has ever taken me up on it.

VanCamp wrote: In the more serious and challenging types of training (Shutzhund, Protection, Ring, Police Service, SAR training, etc.) there is a greater level of knowledge necessary to succeed, and there is also a greater chance of -F-ing a dog up.

LC: I think that if the exercises are broken down into their components that those components can be worked on one at a time. This means that one doesn’t train for a SchH trial, one trains for a deep bite, a bark in the blind, and following a track.

VanCamp wrote: Now that crap behind me, I am interested in your statement that any problems that are caused by the e-collar can be fixed with the e-collar. Will you explain that one to me. I would like to know more about that.

LC: Sure. A very common misuse of the Ecollar is when a dog has a problem releasing a bite. The old method has the trainer putting the Ecollar on the dog, turning it up as high as it will go and then blasting him(dynamite style) off the bite. Often this works but usually causes other problems. The most common is balking, refusing to go out again. This occurs because of a faulty association that occurs and the fact that the dog feels a high level of pain from being blasted. When a dog is blasted, he can’t think anymore. Imagine yourself high up on a ladder hitting your thumb solidly while trying to hammer in a nail. For a few seconds you can’t think of anything but the pain. People have died because they forgot to hold onto the ladder when this happens. This is what happens to the dog. Now think of the same thing but this time you just barely catch the edge of your thumb with the hammer, just causing a TEENY amount of pain. In this case you hold onto the ladder and think, “Boy that was close, I gotta be more careful!” You’re able to remember the important things, hold on and be more careful.

LC: So by using low levels and doing some OB with some agitation going on the dog learns that his bad experience won’t be repeated, at least not right now. At some point the dog will be ready to bite again and so you send him. You out him, this time while giving low levels of stimulation and he outs. You do some more OB with low levels and then send him on another decoy. Pretty soon he’s biting just as intently and deep as before.

VanCamp wrote: Thanks for putting up with the long ass post.

LC: ROFL, like I have any room to talk.

bigdbla wrote: I'll give a real world example of a screw up I made. I thought it would be a swift idea to teach one of my dogs a long down by myself with my e-collar. When he goes to get up without my recall, I'll just zap'em right? Wrong!! He did'nt associate the shock with the getting up, he associated it with the DOWN. Wouldnt Platz for the rest of the night, and walked most of the way home between my legs looking around trying to figure out where that shock came from. Luckily this was easily remedied with a little positive reinforcement, and he was plopping right down with his ears up looking for a hot dog by the next morning.

LC: First this sounds like you were using fairly high level of stimulation. I don’t’ do that and don’t advocate it. If I had spoken to you on the phone I would have told you this.

LC: Second, If you were training with me I’d have walked you through this training before this occurred. You made one of the most basic errors that I’ve been speaking about; the dog didn’t know how to shut off the stimulation. He didn’t know how to make it stop. This is the essence of using an Ecollar. But even without me there to help, you fixed the problem. So your dog was F#$ked up for one night and now you know that you made an error. Doesn’t seem like that big a deal to me. Is there anyone here who hasn’t made some sort of screwup with a dog sometime?

Michael Taylor wrote: It is unrealistic to think that it is a cure all for everything and everybody.

LC: Michael I don’t think I’ve said that it is a cure all for everybody. It is for me and I’ve trained dozens of people to use it the right way.

Michael Taylor wrote: I agree that the my statement about the average Joe using the e-collar, could apply to any training collar, but a jerk from prong collar and someone holding the button down on level 5 is most likely going to have more of an imprint on a dogs mind set.

LC: Michael what you describe here is improper Ecollar use.

Michael Taylor wrote: Unrination because of fear is one example, another is a dog that has never turned on his handler, turning on his handler and mauling him for the fact that he did not like the electric shock and did not understand it. Giving people the imppression that it is more safe and humane then other training tools, I feel is a litte irresponsiable.

LC: Michael from the start of this I’ve talked about “proper use.” The phenomenon that you describe doesn’t occur with proper use, they occur with improper use. Certainly you realize that you can accomplish the things you mention, urination and handler attacks with a pinch or choke chain.

Michael Taylor wrote: There are dogs, that I and other trainers would not put an e-collar on, as the results may be counter-productive. This is not the case with all dogs, and I am sure that you have had good results using them, with your dogs and clients dogs, but I do feel that in most cases it is a more powerful training tool then most others.

LC: We agree that the Ecollar is a more powerful training tool than others and that’s at once it strength and it’s weakness. I put an Ecollar on EVERY dog that I train. I’ve never been bitten by one of those dogs. I’ve never gotten a handler bitten by his own dog during training because my methods avoid conflict and are very gentle.

Josh Lewis wrote: I think Lou's point is that w/ the correct "teacher" who knows what they are doing, a e-collar is easier to use than most other training tools. I have some folks who can't walk and chew gum let alone gather up lead, make a correction, turn around and let slack back out of a lead...much easier to push the button at the right time and level, even for a novice.

LC: I haven’t even mentioned this Josh. Thanks for reminding me. MANY handlers don’t have the timing and coordination to properly deliver a correction. But, as Josh points out just about any fool can give a command press a button at the same time.

LC: These conversations, about Ecollars often turn horribly ugly. I’m pleased that this one has stayed polite. (Hope I didn’t speak too soon. LOL)

Actually I was using the lowest level of stimulation, he had just never been corrected from afar. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I also understand the training, truth is a dog may freak out trying to figure out what the stimulation is, and where its coming from rather than realizing it did something wrong. And as far as all the explaining and teaching you do, the person would leave you fairly knowledgeable about an e-collar, would he not? What Im saying is its not for the beginner to jump into.

Hi Lou. I agree that the collar is a neat tool. And yes you can get the same bad results with other collars like the one's I described. But I have seen alot of improper use of the e-collar. ANd with a dominant dog, I have seen two dogs that were a little atrong but not handler really aggressive maul thier handlers after giving a correction from the collar. I feel there is a time and a place for them. It is advised to seek out proper instruction. I do not feel that this tool should be used by anyone, as I see you aggree. Likke I said I am sure that you have had good results with them. I know I have. I did learn a lot from someone though that used them with great results.

I use a TriTronics, it has been a very good piece of equipment. Although rarely used, I have one basic rule. I only correct a behavior the dog knows. Personally i've never used it to "teach" a new task, only for correction of an already learned behavior, or misbehvior as the case may be. I'm sure others do what has been successful for them. I've found that if the dog wears the dummy collar for a minimum of two weeks prior to any stimulation, the dog attenuates to that collar, like wearing a wedding band, you forget you have it on. It gives the shock more value and is a more effective correction. WE all know the best of all worlds is that our training is flawless and we never have to resort to using that method, however this being the real world, that just doesn't happen. As the hunters are proud of saying: When the tailgate drops, the BS stops. PS I sure do enjoy the dialogue on this board.

David Frost

The e-collar's strongest point is that it is so easy to use. Its' weakest point is...it's so easy to use!

A fool can take almost any piece of training equipment and manage to screw up a good dog, but that does not mean the equipment is the problem.

Tha very first time I ever saw an e-collar used, the trainer was working a very hard dog that just would not out. He only knew about two ways to try and work the out, so when they did not work...you guessed it..."I'll get that #%#@&*%@ to out, gimme that new shock collar!!!!!"

As far as he was concerned, the thing had only two settings..."Wide Open" and "Off". He cranked it to "WFO", gave the "Out" command and when Fluffy refused to out, hit the switch. Fluffy assumed that this pain was coming from the dirty, no good, @#%%# he was biting at the time, so being a tough dog, HIS answer to the collar was to bite harder and become more frantic! Would it surprise you to learn that this trainer never did get this dog to out reliably?

If something like this has been your only experience with an e-collar, it is natural to be a little skeptical of their use. A healthy dose of skepticism is not necessarily a bad thing...just don't let it make you blind to new and better tools or techniques.

I think the "Key" idea throughout this entire thread is the same...get some training from someone who knows how to introduce and use the collar in the right way, BEFORE you buckle it on Fido. I once heard Donn Yarnall say that some of the scariest words you will ever hear on a training field are "Let's see what he'll do"!