Sounds like you are super into dogs and their behavior, very cool, I hope you get a chance to have a career at it. I am a retired veterinarian and enjoy working with sick animals, so with my cattle herd, for example, ones that aren't "perfect" I keep and bring along, and I enjoy that challenge, though it drives my hired man crazy.
The BT we had was of the terrier type.

NO i didnt blow that off for a body "type" as i stated mom had the ideal personality and i also really liked her grandmothers personality as well/ type as well.

i knew that she was going to be challenge, that she was going to need alot of structure in her life, that im going to have to train her 24/7 and be incontrol of all and every situation she goes into.

my male is a pretty easy going boy but he is never left with anyone else hes ALWAYS with me, if he is not with me he is safley tucked away at home in his crate. my job allows me to spend pretty much all day everyday working with my dogs.

i dont beilive in tucking dogs away and not dealing with issues, i dont belive in feeding a food aggressie dog in the crate and hope for best, i dont belie in walking a dog reactive dog at 5am to avoid contact with other dogs.

and i still do not understand why people beilive shes going to be a "danger"? or that shes going to suffer? she enjoys people she enjoys being around people she enjoys it.
its not as if im going to be forcing her to petted by people in public nor am i going to force her to tolorate bratting, annoying people who will be rude towards her and not respect her boundrys.

and when i made mention about PTS dogs who bite people, im talking about a dog who will not be managed and will not be fixed, if I cant teach a dog not to bite and i cant find someone else to teach a dog not to bite then yes i would rather put the dog to sleep then try to find it a new home and take the risk of someone being seriously injured. i could have put my first male to sleep for biteing me and attacking me for 2-3 months but i did not i opted to give him back to the breeder.

 Quote: Kimberly Salisbu

. . .so i looked farther i looked all over the upper MI and couldnt find anyone willing to help me or give me any help. i found one behaviorlist in WI but he was not willing to come and see me and i couldnt keep driving 500 miles for help. . .

I have stayed out of this thread because I have very little experience with behavior problems and you are receiving excellent advice from many on the forum who do have that kind of experience, but I just want to offer this information because of the above quote.

It sounds like you live in Michigan. Maybe the UP? I live in Michigan, too, and we are fortunate to have an outstanding canine behavior expert living right smack in the middle of the state. If I ever felt the need to have a consultation with a behaviorist, this is who I would go to. I know several people who have personally consulted and trained with her. She is well-respected and comes highly recommended. I have two of her books and have learned a lot from them.

http://brendaaloff.com/how_we_help.html

I too hope you will stick around, Kimberly. There is so much to learn here!

You specifically mentioned putting THIS dog to sleep if she turns out to be a biter. Noone swore that this dog would bite; people are questioning your management and training, and many of us have seen where that can end up.
Dogs don't get unmamageable by themselves; there's a lot of human error involved, and it's always the dogs that pay. In the case of the first dog, his only crime was belonging to an inexperienced owner who wasn't strong enough to control him. Had you put him to sleep, that would have been akin to murder.

No dog deserves to die because a human can't properly care for him. Dogs die because people fail them. If you assume the responsibilty for a dog's care, that should be for life (unless, of course, there are preconsidered limitations and rehoming was planned in advance, or there is a backup plan). If you can't resolve to care for a dog entirely and completely for the entire span of its' life, you don't get that dog. If someone has criteria that dictate what kind of dog they need, a lot more care should be taken during the selection process, including waiting a year or more if need be.

IMHO, a behavorist doesn't have a contingency plan for failure. If there's the slightest chance that a bad situation can get to the point of PTS, the behaviorist is expected to provide a viable solution. If you told me to kill a dog because you couldn't figure out a solution ("I'm stumped"), I'd be out of there so fast you'd swear I was never there.

PS; by back-up plan, I don't mean PTS.

 Quote: steve strom

Teach her to lay down.

A dog who is doing what you told her to do, because you have trained the command, proofed it, practiced it, and made it second nature, is NOT doing what you don't want her to do.



"Working with a young pup, getting to know it inside and out BEFORE it's ever introduced to strangers or other dogs that you have no idea about, is what's going to build that confidence in her, your confidence in her and her confidence in you, as her leader." (CJ)

"As I have said twice, if you want not to reinforce the displays when she wants to meet-and-greet, you have to withhold contact when she displays. That doesn't mean forever; it means until she learns that the display won't achieve the desired result." (Duane)


Train, train, train ..... tiny little upbeat marker sessions .... quantity, not length.

How much do you know about marker training?

Basic ob is your friend. Instead of "firm corrections," I'd teach what I wanted (as Steve said so succinctly) and stop focusing on what I didn't want.


QUOTE from page one: Sounds to me, JMO, that she needs some desensitization, followed by not allowing her to greet people or dogs if she does make a display, period.

You, the pack leader, decide on interactions. She does not. I'm sure you understand the necessity for this, from safety (the dog's, the humans' and dogs' around you, and yours) to the security for the dog of solid reliable pack structure and a pack leader who guides her through the world, teaching and protecting her.

Desensitizing work is good work: it enhances trust and the bond between you, it does great things for ob, and it builds (because it is based on) focus.


"{She} was/is very vocal and sassy when she wants somthing she makes alot of noise that sound pretty bad she growls, snarls,barks ect. im working on curbing this and give her a firm correction everytime she 'sasses" and only reward her when shes calmly sitting or lieing down. well recently she has begun these same behaviors (growling, barking,snarling) when she wants to meet a person or another dog ..."

This is a pup who needs desensitizing work that incorporates lots of short, upbeat, focus and ob work.

Marker training is by far the best tool in the tool kit for this. How much, if any, marker training have you done? (Sometimes it's called clicker training; "clicker" training is just marker training using a clicker for your marker.)

She needs to focus on YOU! The center of her life!





BTW, I spent 30 minutes this morning fast-forwarding through the Puppy Pack Structure DVD (an inexpensive and accessible video) to make sure the socializing info I thought I remembered as being there IS there, and it is.

http://leerburg.com/flix/videodesc.php?id=907

In addition, there are many detailed threads here as well as articles on the main Leerburg site about this topic. Perhaps the biggest point that you'll find over and over and over is that puppy socializing is NOT meeting and greeting and being touched by every stranger (human or canine) who happens along.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/27/2012 04:28 PM)
Edit reason: BTW

@Cheri-thanks so much for that! yes im in Upper MI
i tried googling behaviorlists in MI i tried the phone book, i tried a website someone gave me to search for trainers, plus i called every vets office listed in the phone books all over MI and WI.

and yes she IS my responsibility and if i fail as a trainer and a leader to her and cannot manage her behaior and she is a danger to people or other animals then YES i will put her to sleep. unfortunatly here in the US theres too many dogs, and too many BYB breeding unstable dogs to begn with and not enough owners who are capible of dealling with these dogs, while some can try not everyone has the resorces of dealing with these high maintance dogs. it would be highly irrisponsible of someone to try re-homeing an aggressive dog to just anyone.
its a cruel world and we as humans are the ones who make it so and its also we who need to clean up the messes left behind by others. and if that means putting animals to sleep that no one can manage or deal with then so be it, whats a life keeping a dog locked up 24/7 because they are too aggressive to do anything to aggresie to be around people.
yes i am a firm beliver in putting animals to sleep that no one is willing or capible to deal with them.

its sad and cruel but unfortunatly its the truth, if i had not taken this girl she would have ended up with the people who took her brother who had only had one BT before and told me that they never trained him because they dont know anything about dog training, she contacted me on FB she had originally wanted Chimera because she thought she looked pretty but i had already had first pick of the litter, if i did not she would hae gone to her and after talking to her would have been a real diesaster im sure i have been kind of directing her on how to teach basics to the male she took, she was not sure how to teach a dog to sit. i worry about the male she took because he has been barking at people as well when he sees them walk past her gate 9she posted a video on FB) and she has been encourging it, i have told her that it is not a good idea to encourge territorial behavior like that but she insists he will be just like her other male, maybe he will maybe he wont maybe it will escalate into somthing or nothing.

and to be honest, Bull Terriers in general are quite a "pushy" breed anyways, you have to keep after them and keep reminding them whos in charge.
but, quite frankly i can swear to everyone this girl is NOT going to ever be put to sleep, does she try to take control of situations? yes she does BUT i nip it in the bud EVERY TIME im showing her IM leader and i make decisions by being consistant and fair, i keep her mentally entertained, i keep her physically tierd and i give her a reason to respect me by fufilling her needs and showing her she can trust that I will take care of things.

Sadie my rescue due to her nervousness was very controling, if cesar played with his toy she would feel the need to stop him and be in control she would burst and snap she was even trying to correct and take control over my nephew for being excited when he was here i gave her a reason to trust me to take control.
i dont make decisions jsut to be boss, i dont tell the dogs to do somthing and expect them to do it because i said so, i expect it because i have gien them a reason to trust me as a leader, they trust me to take there food away because they know im not trying to bully them and i will feed them fairly, they trust that when we walk past barking snarling dogs in yard that they dont ened to react becuase i will protect them, the trust me to not correct eachother (anymore) because i will keep the situation from escalateing from play fighting to actuall fighting. and i will do all of this without fighting them or hurting them or being physical with them.

IMO THAt is the ONLY way one should control a dog.

Have you read any of the socialization stuff that's been posted here? What have you done so far by way of socializing this pup? Meeting other people and other dogs should not be done until the pup understands that YOU are all that is good in the world. Once she gets that concept, she won't be so excited about other people. And if you want her to be social with people later on than she can- as I mentioned in my original post- I've socialized 2 working therapy dogs this way, and they are EXCEPTIONAL therapy dogs.

What have you done to engage this pup when she's in a distracting environment? What have you done by way of building your relationship with the pup? The picture in my signature is my 8 year old Malinois Toni. We were at a flyball demonstration at a dog walk- people and dogs everywhere. Tennis balls flying, other dogs hitting the flyball box- a highly charged and exciting environment. But what is she doing in that picture? Laying quietly at my feet waiting for me to tell her it's time to play... this is a HIGH DRIVE MALINOIS - don't forget that. She doesn't care about what's going on around her because ALL HER FUN comes from ME.

What have you done when she sees other people and starts to vocalize? Other than the "firm corrections" that you mentioned in the beginning? This subject, by the way is covered VERY well in the puppy pack structure DVD that Connie has linked to TWICE.

The behavior that you described in the beginning - barking and vocalizing when she doesn't get something- is pretty typical of a pup that hasn't learned that barking and vocalizing won't get her what she wants.

Ignore the behavior until she's quiet- then reward the behavior that you want- being quiet, four feet on the floor, a quiet sit- whatever you are looking for.

If she's not freely offering a quiet behavior, than teach her one. Sit- to me that means sit QUIETLY until I let you go. Down- to me that means lay down QUIETLY until I let you go. Go to place- to me means go to your place and stay there QUIETLY until I let you go. What's the common denominator here??

In the beginning, reward just a few seconds of being quiet. As she learns the game, increase the time. She's smart- she'll figure it out. Marker training is your friend.

There has been so much other "stuff" on this thread, that I'm honestly not sure that I've even answered the original question... or that I am sure what the original question was.

I'm gonna go play with my dogs now.

Deleted .... Kelly covered it while I was typing.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/27/2012 07:29 PM)
Edit reason: self delete

 Quote: Kimberly Salisbu

how im stumped is because she will make alot of noise because she wants to meet people, but then if people come to greet her its only enforcing the behavior

Ok, so this is the original question, no??

Simple answer, don't let her meet other people yet. See previous posts about proper socialization and not letting the pup meet others until she understands that YOU are the funnest thing around.

Thank you kelly for your helpful answer.
i will begin doing this tomorrow morning