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Most of the comments are about dogs that have progressed beyond begining prey work.

That's actually what I'm getting at. If a dog is being agitated without a sleeve, and it appears that he wants a piece of the "naked" helper, doesn't that mean it has moved beyond prey?

But then when the helper comes back with a sleeve, the dog gets a bite and then trots off. Is that just general satisfaction and victory for the dog? No petting is going on while the dog is in action. But shortly after the "victory" the helper came back to pet the dog to show me (the resident dogless new guy) how otherwise friendly such dogs can be.

I talked to the helper/trainer at the time, but things got discombobulated in my mind. I'm just trying to see with whose point of view this guy's creed meshes with.

You lost me.

Nevermind.

Hi guys- sorry to pop up in the middle but I just have to! Handlers and agitators for civil training as opposed to sport (sch or ipo) SHOULD be working totally differently because the goal is different.
The only good agitator in my book is the own that is careful NOT to ruin the dog for real life guarding (especially without asking the owner) but even an owner may not know what he will be doing with his dog next year. What is 'ruining' a dog? A young GSD I new very well as a great sport dog (SCH-II)and potential civil protector was RUINED by an agitator that helped the dog learn an awesome 'AUSS' by kicking him hard in the chest. Real hard. The dog did great and passed SCH-III the next week. 5 Years have passed and Grando looks like a guard dog, acts like a guard dog, almost sounds like a guard dog (kinda girly bark-- wouldn't want another kick I guess!) but will NEVER be one. If he had gotten that kick as a mature dog he could have taken it in stride -in which case he would have only bitten HARDER but of course crummy agitators only hurt young dogs. He probably wouldn't have kicked the dog if it was older.
Any way, I usually train for civil protection because I find it more interesting and rewarding.
Picture Grando SCH-III, hours and HOURS of training,$$$, vets etc and the mutt across the street has more fight in him!
For civil one must use alot of agitators -PRETTY WOMEN TO! And most react differently to a bite (some SCREAMING TO HIGH HEAVEN). They bite on an interior sleave UNDER clothes (so as to not show) and full body sleaves are used too. The also test the dog when no one is home as many wimpy dogs only bite if their owner is "backing" them.
A real guard is even meaner when the owner is
away...
In the end of this training NO ONE can befriend the dog IF the master is away- NO BODY. You can coo and pucker up and giggle and offer toys but all you will see is fangs. On nutral ground the dogs range from angelic but aloof to very sociable and friendly. At home with the owner the are each a bit more friendly than they were outside and they do silly things like moan and show their bellies to the guests. If the guest turns out to be a bad guy they growl or attack (depending on the force coming from the guest) but they will release if the guest surrenders (stops fighting) or on command. Now in civil protection, THIS IS WHERE YOU CALL 911 OR YOUR GUEST CRAWLS TO THE HOSPITAL ON HIS OWN! There is no turning off aside from a 'platz+blieb!' while you wait for the ambulance. I doubt the guy would like to pet your dog EVER again. That is life.
If the dog feels the need to only 'reprimand' a guest for lecturing you sternly for example (this happened 1-2 times with my father) a firm steady low growl will usually suffice to remind him of his manners. And yes, they are friends again in minutes only some dogs (the GREAT ones) may be on alert under their silly grin.
My Schnauzer is like this. He won't let the housekeeper leave with anything (only I can take out the garbage) but he ADORES her. If I am gone, my mother can't come in. This is something he decided on his own although HE ADORES HER TOO!
Only 3 friends could probably get in the house if I was away. And believe me they are very close friends. Meanwhile this is one of the most common questions I get from guests and strangers is this:
"He's awesome- but does he guard the house?"

Originally posted by Magic-Mt.:

A real guard is even meaner when the owner is
away...
In the end of this training NO ONE can befriend the dog IF the master is away- NO BODY. You can coo and pucker up and giggle and offer toys but all you will see is fangs. I see where you're coming from and I agree that it's important to have a dog that's not living off facilitated aggression or it's not a well-rounded dog, but there's just one teeny problem I see with this: so, what happens if you have to leave the dog at the vet's? Or take it to a boarding kennel? You definitely won't be able to get a pet sitter if you're away. Of course, you may take all your vacations with your dog and pray that no emergencies happen.

I don't think the principle of what you're doing is bad, but I do wonder if the extent to which you push it to create a dog unapproachable save on your say so doesn't endanger it?

Dei.

Seems to me that this topic was over. . .like seven months ago.

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Originally posted by Todd E. Gaster:
Ok, here goes. On another list there is a discussion going on that I get a kick out of.
Please correct me if I am missing something here.

Todd Please PM me about the list address. Should be fun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> :rolleyes:

I think you are all right. But talking about differant dogs!
SchH is amoung other things to prove that a dog hasgood temperment that he is very controlable. Thus as stated by some of you, we want the dog to cool off fast.When called upn he or she has the tempermant and ablity to eat you.But when not asked , or in the absence of human aggression there a great pet.

A dog trained for police work or pure protection should not be expected to cool off in seconds and thus not expect the perp. to be a friend.60 sec. later.

If I wanted a dog for pure protection. I would consider SchH as grammer school. He would then go on to college, and learn there is more to life than a arm and friend to play tug with. He would learn to find legs backs Blood etc.

were trying to compare apples and oranges.

Ron