Better yet, go find a German who doesn't agree with me. And you want to see some folks who will have FITS over points!? Try the Germans or Belgians! They're scratching and clawing for every 1/2 point out there.

how many times in training our dogs at blinds,haven't we but a helper in blind 3 n have the dog just blow by him without even a nodd.Or am i the only one this has ever happened to.Wasn't the articial that Ed wrote on judges poor performance in trial a check for our judges.
We all want world class dogs? Right.Stop ur complaining n train the dogs to search.I appauld
the judge.I've always complained the dog wasn't coming to handler on the search,in our club we make the dog come to us .We competed well in the world events this last year n to continue we need more judges like this guy.Someone made the point this was'nt a clubb trial,my god it was nationals.
I do agree we need more continuity in the judging
but lets not slop through the thing.We all should train to be the best we can.Beleive you me i need tonsof work.Just my opion thanks

Although I haven't shown in a while, I do know that you can't train for points! Every judge has his/her own interpretation of those points besides the fact that they are human beings (yes, they are) and they miss things and get tired, etc... I know that while I was actively competing there were times I got more points than I really deserved and times I got gypped.. try showing a Doberman female at all GSD events and see what happens! I learned far more by setting goals for my dogs performance thru my training than thinking....gotta get a V in this phase!

Did I like winning or getting V's?? SURE! But it's the same old thing at every trial, there are always people who don't like the judging... my opinion is this--if you don't want the judge to judge you--don't enter the trial. If you do enter, do your best and have fun!!

And BTW, my dog did look in every blind in trials!! hehe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (but she ran wide and some judges don't like that and take points so it's always something!!)

I like the point Karmen made. This should make sense to Mike as well who wants a realistic trial I think. Does the dog have to come around the corner and cock his head up to the top of the freaking blind to check it?

I don't think so, as soon as he rounds the corner he can tell if it is empty or full without moving his head. No need to flip his head up to the top of the blind like an idiot.

BTW, I think the best way to train that hard look into the blind IS with a ball.

Playing the shell game or Three Card Montey with the dog only goes so far. I'm working this problem right now, and the ball is the answer to get that dumb head jerk up to the "face level" of where a helper would be.

The dog knows the second he comes around the corner, he doesn't have to look up, only see no feet or legs or guy.

(training with the ball helps with coming into the blind wide as well. . .my bitch did that too)

You probably should not train for points, but how can you expect to present your dog in its best light if the judging is different in every competiton trail.

If your dog scores a 94 and another dog that by all concern makes the same run scores 97, shouldn't you be upset.

Or using Orv analogy,the other contestant makes several mistakes and scores the same or higher then your dog, there would be some inconsistency in the jugding. I know there are some human biases in all competition and trails. But, fairness and reason should prevail.

Granted during a National meet you should be at your sharpest, it seemed that he was consitant at deducting points for the same offense. But it still seems kinda unfair to do it without prior warning. Like E-mail or written letter 3 months before the Nationals stating these rules will be enforced, 1. The dog must look inside each blind...

I know sh*% happens. It shouldn't happen as much with the Judging. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I guess my point was that you have to train your dog the best you can and in a way that YOU like. It's impossible to train for every judge.

some judges take the "overall picture" into consideration and may overlook a few glitches here and there if the picture is excellent. Others look strictly at correct and straight heeling, fronts, transports, etc and could care less if the dog and handler appear to be a team or the dog shows pressure.

I realize everyone wants to prepare and do their best at a trial, especially considering the time and money that go into attending a National or International event but I have been attending Nationals, North Americans and even a World Championship in Europe for close to 20 years now and it's the same thing...there are always people who don't like the judging..Unless you show under only one judge for your dog's whole career, you can't train for what you think a judge will like. You have to train for what YOU like and want to see in your own dog. If you don't care that your dog looks in the blind, don't train for it! I personally am not willing to use a ball in protection to get my dog to look in each blind!! :rolleyes: Certain judges are known for liking certain things and disliking certain things, the obedience judge docked everyone whose dogs forged or bumped even a teeny bit on the build up, some judges count steps, some don't. Some judges are super critical of grips, some let people by with 3/4 bites..the list goes on and on.

My old female looked in every blind, looking back I couldn't tell you if it was training or just her style. She ran so damn fast that the only time I ever let her "run" the blinds was in a trial. In training it was 'revier' then when she got to the open side of the blind 'platz' and then 'hier' right to me with a sit in front...we did our share of run outs and guys in different blinds but she knew in a trial the guy was in 6...

I think we can all agree that running the blinds is an exercise in obedience? The dog isn't really looking for badguys, and it is naive to think that in a trail they are, so what is wrong with using a ball to teach the dog to look up in each blind if that is what is expected.

Sure, some dogs just do it, coming around the corner with their head turned to the side, but to get the dog to come around the corner with that noticeable sharp look up into the blind, hanging balls is fine in my book. If it gets me the extra points, It'll be fine in the judges book too.

It is all a game anyway. . .

I wouldn't use a ball to teach a dog to do a search in a building for a guy with a gun, but to look at an empty blind when the dog knows full well that he is behind door number six. . .where is the harm?

I think everybody does all kinds of funny little things to get a dog to do the routine.

For instance take the go out, we are training the dog to go out and run in a line away from us, right? A thing that is counter to the dog's instincts to stay with the handler, a thing that shows our total control of the dog. . .

But. . .we are really teaching them that when you give the command, and they run real fast in a line - they will find a ball or some other reward at the end of the jog.

"Oh boy I get to run over now and get my ball!"

What does that have to do with anything?

I just don't see the difference in the blind run, is there one? Is there some value to seeing a dog that will naturally look into a blind vs. one that had to be taught? (if Schutzhund is a breed evaluation, which I think it still is)

No harm in doing it, like I said..You need to train the dog how you feel is best. If my dog not looking up in every blind is going to cost me points and the dog is not doing it on his own I *personally* wouldn't bother.

By the time I ever have a dog ready to show again I am sure Lance will be retired anyway and he is the only judge I have witnessed taking points for this. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I gotcha now.