Kelton Sweet, when referring to his behavioral modification techniques, states: "This is neat stuff and can be useful in training dogs (or your spouse)". OR YOUR SPOUSE? Is there a guarantee with this? Do you use your Dogtra at a high setting when applying this technique?

Only joking of course, but the idea is intriguing. LOL

I'm still not seeing how a behaviorist is going to help us train. Unless it's some type of published material that we can study - I can see the worth there. But *hiring* a behaviorist for dog training? I guess I'm not seeing the value there.

kelton says: " Every time you give your dog a treat for doing something well....you've joined the ranks of "behaviorist"
umm, ok - so as dog trainers we're already doing that. And maybe having had a few thousand dogs on the end of a leash for training as taught us to read the subtle signs that a dog gives, which allows us to modify our training at the exact second it needs to be. How is a behaviorist with little or no knowledge of dogs going to be able to do that? How would hiring an expensive behaviorist help us there?

kelton says: " I would say that it's not as "common" sense as we might think. If you have ever worked with behavior problems in dogs -or kids or whatever-, you too would see that this is, apparently not such a "common sense" deal at all! If it were common sense, I would be out of work."
Funny, I work with dogs with behaviorial problems *all* the time. The vast majority of the problems are usually owner induced, and would have been preventable by the owner showing good common sense. And I'm willing to bet that most professional dog trainers would say the same thing.
So, you as a behaviorist, are seeing exotic dog behaviorial problems that we don't see as dog trainers? And are you saying that if dog owners *didn't* show more common sense in the raising of their dogs, that these dog behaviorial problems would have still occur?


kelton says : "In all of my cases, I am experimenting.....but I must also test them out and make changes accordingly. "
And we as dog trainers try different approachs until one works on the particular dog that we're working on. How would hiring an expensive behaviorist help us there?

kelton says; " behavior analysts are in high demand"
I haven't met any professional dog trainers that have used the services of them. If anybody here trains dogs solely for a living and has paid a behaviorist for their services, I'd be interested to know what you felt you got out of it. I can see a poor pet owner being referred to one by a vet ( who doesn't know any better ) though. The behaviorist would likely go out, observe the situation, and come up with a plan of action. Just like a good dog trainer would do. However, the behaviorist would not have the dog training skills to physically show the owner how to make corrects ( if compulsion is the answer ) or even to show them some of the motivational skills used by dog trainers. So we've added an expensive level of consultation to a dog training or dog behavior problem, and in the end, the poor owner will still likely need to seek out a dog trainer to fix the problem. How would hiring an expensive behaviorist help us here?

VanCamp says "Dog training isn't a science, but good dog trainers certainly are following the model. . .whether they know it or not"

Bingo, Robert!! kelton talks about" everyone who has successfully trained a dog has either knowingly or unwittingly engaged in manipulations that have involved many of these things in complex ways. These are just the formal labels for things that relate to the responses of organisms. The more complex issues that relate to these topics are probably unnecessary for the successful training of an animal, but maybe they are in some cases." So in other words....we as dog trainers are already doing that. Yep, understood.
Ok then, let him explain an example of an specific case in dog training where the services of a behaviorist would be of actual benefit ( that a good dog trainer just couldn't do himself, at half the price to the client)- now that, I'd pay atention to.So then I wouldn't have to ask...how would hiring an expensive behaviorist help us here? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think that behaviorial researchers that are spending time in the lab and in the field studying behavior and eventually publishing the results so that we may learn from them are doing us a great service. We as trainiers can study that material and use it to benefit our clients and ourselves.

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Ok then, let him explain an example of an specific case in dog training where the services of a behaviorist would be of actual benefit ( that a good dog trainer just couldn't do himself, at half the price to the client)- now that, I'd pay atention to.So then I wouldn't have to ask...how would hiring an expensive behaviorist help us here?

I guess I can't argue with that! I agree with you Will. I think that the main emphasis has to be "GOOD" dog trainers, who then also have an understanding of behavior. If a trainer does not have a pretty good understanding of dog behavior, how can he then expect to train a dog?

Also, published materials are great, but what about those who have further questions? I guess I don't have any at the moment, but I'm going to read through a couple of my books while traveling this weekend and see if any pop up. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Elisabeth ,
Although you wouldn't know it from my hard line of questions, I actually think that kelton and his background could be a real asset to the board.

For beginning and or inexperienced trainers, he's like a theory lecture. It's up to the trainer themselves then to put the knowledge into practice. And it's not too unlike a college setting, where your professor had a ton of book knowledge, but virtually no real world/ hands on experience - that didn't mean that the information that he put forth was wrong, it just meant that the professor had no way to prove that what he taught was correct - he lacked the skills to do so.( the professor comparison would be most meaningful for a business course, for example ).

My problem with the behaviorists is just them getting paid at a much higher rate then the dog trainer, and then the dog trainer *still* has to end up correcting the problem ( which has been my experience now over a half a dozen times with clients, and from the PM's that I'm getting, it's the experience of many of the experienced dog trainers on the board )

I can't argue with most of what you are saying Will, but I'll offer for your consideration that we as dog trainers are rarely experts on the correct application of the science/theory.

If someone can help some members of this forum (or dog trainers in general) to understand the steps correctly and offer some ideas on the application. . .someone being an expert on the theory. . .a good dog trainer can then take his artistry and improve it.

A behaviorist can take a look at a training method you use and can help you break it down, possibly showing you where you are making mistakes or where you can change the application some to increase your results. Some tweeking of a program using the science that is available is a good thing.

Is Kelton going to take a hold of Fetz's leash and train him to do a bark and hold? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

No, but can he break down some obedience routines and help some trainers with their methods? Maybe so.


For example, just about every good dog trainer I know makes a mistake begining a "proofing for distraction" stage without spending enough time generalizing behaviors.

Distractions are just like different environments, the dog is going to show a drop in performance because he may not know that Sitz means Sitz even when someone walks by. Most would say. . .he knows what sitz means, he knows that sitz means sit in the kitchen, in the garden, in my truck, on the sidewalk, in the living room. Time for a correction! He is choosing to break the sit to go see the distraction.

Well, that isn't exactly correct. Maybe the dog didn't choose to do it. The criteria are different, so maybe he hasn't generalized the behavior to include the distraction. He doesn't know that he has to sit when people walk by.

So is it time to correct or not? That would be the dog trainer's call, but telling you that distractions are just another situation that needs to be generalized could be pointed out by the behaviorist.


I think there is worth there.


Am I going to let him take the lead and work on my little Emma's dog vs. dog issues? No -F-ing way bro! But I might ask him if he can help me make sure my method is taking advantage of the science available.


Kelton, that's why I rated you with 2 stars.

You're not a dog trainer, you probably don't have the experience necessary to make up training methods for our working dogs, and this IS a dog forum. But, I gave you at least 2 stars because you might be able to help some dog trainers with their theory.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I wouldn't mind seeing you throw in on a dog training issue from time to time, to outline how some method fits or doesn't fit with the behavior models.

There has been a lot of stuff said, so it would be a bit of a labor to respond to it all.

Will, you have some sort of powerful bias. Sorry about your experiences with behaviorists,...are you sure they were trained? and at what level? but for every single one of my comments that you quote...I think you have misinterpreted. Like your response to my "common sense" comments. I will explain it differently if you wish.

Still, I'm not seeing much reference to my request at the beginning of this post! Just more of the negative reactions.

My experiences in training animals, and my readings about dog/animal training, and my experiences and training regarding the work with behavior disorders in people is what ultimately led me to the strict study of behavioral science specifically (in my 30's). I didn't just "major in something" and then call myself a behaviorist (or dog trainer)right out of school.

Having said that, I don't care to engage in "I'm one hell of a good trainer" machismo. That's just too weird for me.

There are incredible dog trainers and their are very skilled behaviorists (applied behavior analysts). There are also incompetent ones. Same goes for dentists. That's all I can say about that sort of thing. Not sure how to otherwise respond to the rants offered up so far.

If you have studied the behavioral sciences...and you understand what you have studied....great!...I frankly don't care what sort of certification or diploma that you have. I don't care if you never made it past the 3rd grade, or if your last dog trainer or dentist was a jerk. Not quite sure how it relates to the subject matter either!

But if behavioral science is of interest to you, then that's what I intended with this thread.

I've seen colossal mistakes on the part of dog trainers as well as on the part of behavior analysts.

I don't consider myself a dog trainer, a parrot trainer, or a human trainer...although I have been employed to work with all of them. If it has a brain stem and it's alive...that's good enough for me.

Speaking of generalization, this is a huge issue. I have yet to encounter a response that I have failed to reduce and/or replace with a desired response. (no, I have not tried a bark and hold)...I should also say that I have not encountered every type of problem...but...it is generalizing those new responses to the new owner that is most challenging for me thus far.

My skills may or may not need improvement, but it is very clear that the owner of the animal requires some education.....and because of the expense of time.....the owner has to be quickly educated on the critical issues and convinced that the procedures involved are important. It's the owner's behaviors as it relates to the animal which I find the most challenging. The animals (and children) themselves are usually quite transparent. Sometimes I think I'm offering 5% of my mental effort on the critter while devoting the rest of my energy on those who will be in direct contact with the animal on a daily basis. and I have to do so in very little time. That stresses me out the most. Do any of you feel similarly?

When I re-visit a client (animal or human), I will sometimes hear stories of behavioral disasters during my absence, but won't see the same behaviors while I am there on a visit. The staff/owner will then say "well, YOU just have a way with animals"....or "fido likes you because your a man"....or something like that.
Nowadays, once I get a response to appear in something like it's final form, I will tell the owner/parent "ok, so this is how this procedure works....and when I return, I don't want to hear that your dog is only behaving for me because I have a special way with animals...OK? because he certainly wasn't behaving for me when I arrived! The dog isn't 'cured' and you will need to run a tight ship and follow the procedure...and call me when/if you see something going wrong so we can deal with it pronto"
Anyway, getting the actual caretakers to shape up and then maintain the responses of interest in my absence is undoubtedly the most stressful part of my work. no doubt at all.

Things often seem quite peachy while I'm there with the owner, though.

In the behavioral science field, this issue is called "procedural drift" where the procedures change over time such that they are no longer useful as originally designed. I have set up a response in a demonstration, left the scenario to a direct care staff as I went around to watch through a one-way window, and witnessed the procedure turn almost 180 degrees from the orignal plan...and it happened within 15minutes! In 15 minutes the staff member was ignoring appropriate behavior while reinforcing the bad stuff.

I think what looks like common sense only looks that way because we have been engaged in this process for quite some time.....and it's just not common sense to the layperson.

The most troubling part of it all, is that most customers expect that an expert will be able to show up, change their dog for the better, and leave them with a happier house. Educating the customer within the brief time allowed - now THAT is what *I* think is the challenge! And I am wide open for advice on ways to better my skills in this area.

Again, if you want to talk about the science of behavior....just think back on some topic that might need further clarification, and I *might* be able to help.

kelton,
Yes, I have some powerful biases, my main one being against false advertisement and preying on unwitting consumers. You can see this as a constant thread in many of my previous posts. I am by nature an honest person and I expect the same from others - especially if they profit from other peoples ignorance. That was not aimed at you, by the way.

And not surprisingly, I *still* can't get a straight answer from you regarding all those examples that I posted. Cripes, I used *your own words* as the examples, but then you say that I'm misinterpreting them.
You use a whole lot of words to avoid solid answers to questions.
And you wonder why I feel that you won't give a straight answer to our questions?

kelton :"Having said that, I don't care to engage in "I'm one hell of a good trainer" machismo. That's just too weird for me"

Umm...was there bragging by someone going on here? Or is that just another low level dig at us here ( of which you've made several )? Do you know what the term " passive/ aggressive" means?

Yep, there are bad dog trainers. Many of them - and they cause a lot of heartache in the canine world.
On the other hand, I've seen many good dog trainers who have helped dogs and their owners.
But I have yet to personally see a case with dogs ( and I see a lot of cases, maybe here is where I should add that "I turn away cases" , to prove in what demand my services are :rolleyes: . But I digress ) that a behaviorist has helped, or at least had done something more, or even different, then a competent dog trainer would have done - and done at a much lower price, and provided a better service to the customer.

Hi Kelton:
Here's a real life scenario for you: You're a veterinary assistant. It's lunch time and you're the only human at the animal hospital. The friendly animal control officer comes in with a GSD on a loose line. The dog is standing quietly several feet away from the animal control officer. He explains to you that the dog has been left chained outside a warehouse for a long time and its collar is now imbeded in its neck. He also tells you that the animal is "spooky" and easily triggered and will attack. Your job is to get the animal into one of the runs. How do you approach the dog.

This is not a trick. It's a situation that comes up in various forms. This happens to have been a real one.

Hey! If the AC officer brought the dog in on a loose line, let him put the dern dog in the run.

Wouldn't that be nice. Strict no non-employee in the back room policies. Besides I was only in my twenties and too young to take the easy way out.