Hi Reinier,

You are of course right on the following:

I do have authority issues and man if I was a dog I'd bite your leg clean off <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> (joking of course)

My GSD is a pet and will most likely be nothing more than that, but, I do take his training very seriously (like most things I do I just like to get my teeth in and get to work) and I always strive to do the very best I can. I never thought I could love a dog the way I do Loki bhoy and it's changed me for the better (maybe), so I want to make sure I get this absolutley right.

I shouldn't call names. What I should have said was "I think it's a VERY bad idea to have the most agressive dog in town patroling the streets and not very bright" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I appreciate that there may be good reason for this in SA but you can see where I'm coming from right?

Anyway, as is customary for me, I will disagree with your last point that "there is no fun in training dogs" and say that I've had a huge amount of fun and enjoyment training so far. Maybe your right and that will change but if it does then I will change and make it fun again <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

All the best

John

 Quote:

"there is no fun in training dogs" and say that I've had a huge amount of fun and enjoyment training so far.

Come work with my stubborn dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> He'll frustrate the heck outta you some days, I've learnt to accept his stubbornness and not get so worked up over it though, but there's days where you just wanna AGHHH. Then there's times like now when he's laying next to me lookin all cute n you wonder how you could ever get mad at such a cute face. Last night was a good example, he kept breaking his down/stay when we were trying to put him in a "Defense of handler" situation, where he'd attack when the decoy assaulted me... it took a while to get him to down/stay... the thing that I learnt that I'd like to pass on to anyone with this same problem is this:

My dog breaks his down/stay, I verbally correct then walk over to correct on the prong, he lays down before I get to him, I walk away because he listened, in his mind: "I can get up and walk around if I feel like it as long as I lay down before my daddy gets to me"... it's so obvious to me now, but it never occured to me to correct him on the prong even after he's laid down. The second I started doing that, his down/stay was great. So if your dog likes to wander around instead of staying when told, n you've been making the mistake I was... here's your chance to say "oh wow, I'm such an idiot, why didn't I think of that" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think that would be one of those "WOW" moments mentioned above <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> We've had a few of those lately, like my helpers dog used to be perfect on the Out, but due to lack of training for a few years the dog's Out has gotten sloppy, someone suggested telling the dog to Out, then Sit. It's working beautifully, the stress of obedience is aleviating the stress of having to out, he has a new task to do after he's Outed, then I make a quick move and he re-bites as a reward for his good Out and Sit.

We also had a "WOW" moment when I took my first bite from a dog being sent on me from a distance... I literally fell over <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Wish we caught that one on video, I've taken countless bites from the dog so it never occured to me how hard he hits you when he's running at you at full speed, I got caught off balance n crashed down, it was amusing to say the least, and I'm sure the dog enjoyed that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can't wait till we get that bite suit next month!

Reiner,
"any trainer worth his salt will charge a flat rate for any course and deliver the goods no matter how big or small the suckers hart is in the fight"

Reiner - you so often compare your standards and results to those that we apparently can't achieve here in the U.S.
By your standards, most U.S. trainers "aren't worth their salt". We're unable to breed these wonder litters that you speak of ( and the German's are apparently as bad as us also ).

But I would ask, if ya'll are doing such a good job, how come the U.S. and the rest of the world aren't importing dogs from RSA, especially for Police work? And why aren't the RSA dog teams dominating the World SchH events, if I may ask?

 Quote:

"there is no fun in training dogs" and say that I've had a huge amount of fun and enjoyment training so far.

I hear you there John! I've been around dogs and doing training (started with show dogs then moved on through obedience, agility, leader dogs and now schutzhund)and have always had a blast. Sometimes its the joy of working with a fine animal that makes it all worth it and makes it fun. I enjoy the heck out of training my 1 year old male, he's a blast! You keep training how you want and with who you want. It can make all the differance in the world.

The fear of getting involved with a bad trainer is a valid one . Unfortunately I'm having trouble coming up with specific advice on how to avoid them because I fear my advice may also steer people away from some good ones also .

This is what I do . I still go to different kinds of seminars/classes from obediance , tracking , sports , hunting dogs, Police seminars ,etc.). I usually don't bring my dog unless I know alot about them . I'll stand off to the side and watch . I try to stay to myself at first because I don't want to be influenced by others opinions . Later if I've seen enough I'll try to get to know the trainer/s and others and find out if that type of training has done anything for them . I can tell you I usually learn something from every seminar . If the training looks beneficial you can then descide if you want to get your dog involved. I really wish I could have made the last Mike Ellis seminar in my area bye the way . Hopefully there will be another .

Reinier may be right that their are very few new methods of dog training but there are alot of methods that are new to me and if I can find them and add them to my training to improve my dogs that's great .

The trainer IMO is the most important factor in the equation in advancing a dog along in training because he/she is the one bring the "knowledge" and "experiance" .

Novice Handlers find themselves in a tough spot . If they haven't studied up on dog training they run the risk of falling for a bad trainer some with just plan dangerous training methods. If they have done some studying on dog training they run the risk of being too rigid in there beliefs on how to train a dog . They fall into the old saying Mike quoted; " The only thing 2 dog trainers can agree on is that the 3rd trainer is wrong . " This with very limited actual dog handling/training experiance .

PSD training is different then training novice civilians . Aggression is part of the job in PSD training . If I was in Will's shoes I'd be charging extra for dealing with aggressive dogs also . I don't know of too many businesses that don't charge extra for something that's going to take more time , effort and possibly dangerous .

I've seen and heard many dog trainers from other countries make very general statements about Police K9's in the U.S. . I don't think they realize how large and spread out PSD training (sport also) is in the U.S.. They also don't realize the wide variety of training methods used in this coutry since it's so large and there is no set standard. Our best dogs could give there best dogs a run for there money in real Police work anytime . Unfortunately we have alot of bad ones also and that's usually what's talkled about the most .

Quoted: Will “But I would ask, if ya'll are doing such a good job, how come the U.S. and the rest of the world aren't importing dogs from RSA, especially for Police work?

LAPD did, way back in 97.

And why aren't the RSA dog teams dominating the World SchH events, if I may ask?”

I frankly don’t know – maybe its because we don’t use Schutzhund as a gauge for quality working dogs here, and some people have not even heard of SCHH –thank heaven – we see no reference, or compatibility. We judge our dogs by SAWDOS standards, and National competition, and no one out their, (under correction) has ever been able to win it, that was not from the RSA, they tried.

So their exist no compatible criteria to judge our standards with according to your criteria???? – yes /no – I don’t know.

Thirdly, “most US trainers / German are not worth their salt”, no, I never insinuated that, you just did. I know some US and German handlers that are rated world class, by our standards, and yes some that rate ….well like you said.

Your point is? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"Thirdly, “most US trainers / German are not worth their salt”, no, I never insinuated that, you just did."


I was referring to your quote about "any trainer worth their salt" charging a flat rate whether the dog was aggressive or not. Maybe ya'll charge that way in the Third World, but in most developed countries ( especially the U.S. and Germany ) the vast majority of serious dog trainers charge more for aggressive dogs. And several of those trainers have represent the U.S.A. at the World events......but by your quote, they're not "worth their salt". Ok, let me know what they'll need to do to be "worth their salt" in your eyes as a trainer then, ok?



I hadn't heard about PSD's being imported from RSA by LAPD, how many did they import?

 Quote:

Quoted:

I frankly don’t know – maybe its because we don’t use Schutzhund as a gauge for quality working dogs here, and some people have not even heard of SCHH –thank heaven – we see no reference, or compatibility. We judge our dogs by SAWDOS standards, and National competition, and no one out their, (under correction) has ever been able to win it, that was not from the RSA, they tried.

So their exist no compatible criteria to judge our standards with according to your criteria???? – yes /no – I don’t know.

It is statements like this about South Africa and dog training that really irk me! Reineir, alot of people in this country know about Schutzhund and alot of people are now doing it! Some of these are police aswell!
Sawdos standards are extremely low and you do not need a good dog to actually do well there!
By the way Reineir, one South African Competitor finished 11th at the World trials WUSV). But then you would not know that as you are not prepared to go and visit good working clubs and see quality working animals. You seem to be stuck in the 1980's or whenever you learnt your trade!! Well things have changed and moved on and with people like Flinks and Rob de Jonge and the Ritzi's coming out, everyone else is learning....pity you refuse to!!! You did not attend the Flinks seminars did you?
Funny enough I have been told what a disaster the Police training for dogs is, by someone in the know. And funny enough I was told that the breeding scheme was shut down because of... I think it had 2% success rate I stand to be corrected it could have been 1.5% <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
So cut the crap! (Sorry ED) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
I love reading and learning on this board, I don't always have to post to learn something but I just needed to make make it clear that not all people in RSA are deluded!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Excuse me, but this is not my style, this woman has been bad mouthing us forever, and I for one won’t stand for it. Robynne, you are right about one thing, we’re not going to be breeding much, and I wonder what the 'gullible' public is going to buy as companions and protection dogs when they can't get our big, brave, healthy, dogs anymore? They will NOT turn to show dogs, - even ones that come from overseas what they call 'working lines' with so called high play drives - because they don't want what we get here from breeders, that breed for show or ring, sport -all small, narrow, unhealthy sloped dogs with often jittery temperaments – in your own words, you went over and could not even find one stud. They will turn to other breeds. Just like the German Police did to Mals, we live and work with the best stock only. Mainly because a police officers, and the public’s lives depends on the type of dogs we require and use, they are not what you have in any way. Many people have our dogs, and can tell you the difference, apart from the obvious, just as they were deciding to look at other breeds, because they don't like what they see in SA show breeder's kennels. SO, before you clap your hands and dance up and down hoping to be able to sell more of your puppies to someone now , for get it, we are just not all that gullible, Robynne, you don’t know the half of what it takes to put together a working dog for police use, it’s not in the lines, its in the character, the quality we want, you may have been able to breed dogs, but hay, so have the guys in the squatter camps here, they, unlike you, just realize that unless you change the way you select your dogs you are not going to be able to sell them off as “real working police dogs” (the kind we use) ever, no Police institution will touch them, so don’t fool your self. Any one can breed, but can you get what the Armed forces are after? You can bs. your way around on the net, if it rings your bell, and you get satisfaction out of it, but you have never made it in the real big bad world, nor at SAWDOS – “with their low standards” – Come August, and I would like to see you pass the easy grades, as you put it, it should be a walk in the park, with your “studs” and then prove me wrong, and come back and shoot straight –for once. Only in the show ring, but never in real life will you make it. What’s more, the public in S.A needs real working dogs because they face real armed burglars and hi-jackers everyday, and not judges, and their grades to judge a required character.

Oh, and was it not you that posted this little treat; – “I have heard the Flinks seminars were a success.

Unfortunately I had to go to Germany on business and added a week to go and see some dogs, as I am looking for a new stud male. Unfortunately did not find what I was looking for and as a result missed the seminar. I hear he will be back at the end of the year and I will definitely go then. – Robynne???? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Just for the record Robynne I met the man in person,(Flinkls) and we had a discussion on dogs in my office, at my kennels….i did not have to go to a seminar to be seen. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I rest my case…any one can shoot BS. on the net, but try shooting straight – your arguments aren’t arguments at all, it’s all air, and very little to show for it, in terms of track records you don’t have any, you are a non-person with our fraternity, with the Police or armed forces. Will we be using your dogs in the future after this, never, not in a million years my dear. You are on the wrong side of the track.

As far as Schutzhund is concerned in SA, it is not, NOT, even a tad, a drop in the ocean, my best guess is ten or twenty clubs at most, about as popular as knitting in the nude in a shopping centre, compared to what it is anywhere else in the world. So don’t make it off as a big thing here…its not.

This 2% you are referring to, ha ha ha – the breeding collage you are referring to has been around for centuries, this institution is state run, does your friend in the “know”, know much about running an effective business, no one in his right mind will plough millions into a 2% profit margin or is he also on the hearsay channel…please. It takes millions to run that facility, you are insulting people intelligence.

Excuse me, but this was uncalled for, and I apologise if I offended anyone else. I needed to set the record straight on this one.

Reinier,
If this person has been badmouthing you forever ( in your own words ) she hasn't done it here, so there's no need to mention it. If you don't like what she's saying on other forums, keep it to *those* forums, don't bring it here - most forums will not allow disagreements from one forum to be argued on another forum, and that holds for here.

Continue this behavior, and ADMIN will step in, I guarantee it.


And that applies for everyone. You can ask for an opinion on something heard on another forum, that's fine. But if two people are in a fight on some other forum and want to continue it here......well, it's going to become the Mod's problem then, so don't force us to take action, ok?

Will Rambeau
Moderator

To make that somewhat more clear:
You can debate the points forever, no problem - you just can't make it personal in the manner as above.
Hope that clears that up.