Quote: connie sutherland

But I also remind myself that 23 of 27 (I think that was the number) vet schools receive funding from Hills-SD. Many have "nutrition" courses completely funded by Hills-SD.

Now this is where we get into the problem I have with many vets. I don't blame them for assuming that the information that they're getting at vet school is correct. They're shelling out a lot of money and giving up a huge part of their life and time when they choose this profession and went to school for it. It is a really brutal life for a few years. They believe that they are getting good knowledge, and to believe otherwise would indicate a huge waste of all that they gave up.

Also, they're just like most people...they blindly believe authority: the authority of their professors, their textbooks, the "scientific" studies and their well-respected educational institutions. This is the same principle that makes many people still refuse the raw diet even after they've seen the results of raw fed animals, and heard about the lack of nutritional education vets have, etc. They believe in the "white coats."

So if they don't know that the studies and information they're getting is biased, I can't blame them for believing that the advice they're giving is correct. All of us were there at one point or another.

But when they do find this out, and STILL refuse to acknowledge the inherent hypocrisy...that's when I get ticked off. Believing studies that were done by someone with something to gain by the results of that study is just junk science. And at their core, vets should be scientists and as such should damn well know better. And incidentally, they also have to swear to "do no harm" and to me anyway, that means not being a mindless drone, or apathetic or greedy. Not when it comes to animal's health. And don't even get me started on the ego that develops after years of people paying you lots of money for your opinion!

But that being said...there are SOME good vets out there that aren't like this! There really are! Doesn't anyone here have a good vet? I guess I'm lucky.

 Quote: connie sutherland

And maybe young vets really still believe the Hills mantra; what else do they have to go by? But experienced vets .... I do not believe that they have not made the connection between fresh food and vibrant health. "Craven," yes..... and money-centric.

That's if the vets have really seen those results. I mean, honestly, not that many people feed raw and many of those that do LIE about it to their vets, either to spare the lecture or because they're just not built to challenge authority so blatently.

That's why I'm willing to get into it with vets that want to lecture me. It's important to me that they're not assuming my dog's fantastic health has anything to do with Hill's crap food.

So in the mean time we are reduced to defending, making excuses for the 'Dr.s', and generally just saying 'no, it's not the diet' when we really need some expertise in health issues.
Who was it, (only a guess here) Andy Warhol, W. Burroughs, or Allen Ginsberg who said 'Everybody is a prostitute', well okay, but how much one is willing to give for the take? Seems to me that some where along the line most of these so called 'Dr.s' cross a big divid between care for the patient and the need for buying a new SUV.
My sad experience with a vet recommending ice cream ranging to the op experience is a big gulf. Where is the balance?

Thanks again Connie for the editing. Graven, craven, wraven, nobody really pays attention to my ramblings anyway. It's nice though to have somebody keeping me on my toes. Thanks.
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

Who was it, (only a guess here) Andy Warhol, W. Burroughs, or Allen Ginsberg who said 'Everybody is a prostitute',

I think it was Henry James..... or he quoted Karl Marx.


((( So in the mean time we are reduced to defending, making excuses for the 'Dr.s', and generally just saying 'no, it's not the diet' when we really need some expertise in health issues. )))

It's sad, isn't it.

Which makes people like Richard Pitcairn, Tom Lonsdale and Ian Billinghurst real heroes, because they were and are ridiculed and ostracized for speaking up in favor of real food for dogs.

I just want to ad, in regards to the good dr bad dr issues in the hill's pills pushers vs vets who've "seen the light" with raw diets... the general populace, the majority of pet owners trust their vets no matter what, they often view the vet as a friend and do not question the advice they are given.

As long as regular joe pet owners are still blindly following the over processed grain based crap kibble recommendations - as long as people are still buying the foods, vets will have less incentive to question the selling and pushing of SD. If we can educate the pet owners we have a better chance of making vets pause and think.

The only problem with that of course are the people who refuse to take any advice that does not come directly from a vet. Since more vets push SD in comparrison to the few raw advocates, % is not on our side for those pet owners.

People tend to view the vets that are in favor of the raw diet as vets that went against the grain - because it is still out of the norm the information will be looked at suspiciously. As long as we push the fact that vets are fed info on SD and hills products, they may turn it on us and say we must have fed info and money and funded this raw diet vet just to back us up.

It is stupid, yes.. but I have come across someone who thought this way, that meat companies paid off vets. If I say "My vet has seen the results of a raw diet and done some independent information gathering and now suggests raw to her clients.." I will get "Well of course YOUR vet would!"

 Quote: randy allen

So in the mean time we are reduced to defending, making excuses for the 'Dr.s', and generally just saying 'no, it's not the diet' when we really need some expertise in health issues.

I, for one, am not defending or making excuses for anyone. Those that suck...suck. But I am not about to say that EVERY vet goes into it this profession because they want an SUV. I am an incredibly cynical person, but I guess my cynicism just doesn't go that far. If that's really what you believe then why go to the vet at all?

On this board, whenever someone asks for medical advice, we often reply, "Don't ask on the internet...your dog should be seen by a vet." That's been written over and over here. Why is that good advice if they're only evil masterminds bent on killing our dogs slowly so they can have lots of cash?

Obviously they're SERIOUSLY lacking in nutrition advice and are often guilty of being pig-headed and egomaniacs and perhaps even profit-driven. But they're sure handy to have around when your dog gets hit by a car, aren't they? THEN, we trust them.

I'm not trying to start an arguement here. I'm just saying that you can apply this to almost any profession: MDs, lawyers, insurance salesmen, real estate agents, mechanics, chiropractors...whatever. But we still use them, don't we? So that implies a certain amount of trust, no matter how dubious.

Do you know how many drastically different species and diseases and medications and completely different physiological systems a vet has to learn...in 4 years? It's insane the little education vets have on nutrition, yes, but considering that unless they're specialists in nutrition and then in CANINE nutrition specifically, it's not as surprising as it is at first glance. Even medical doctors only have to deal with one species. Just playing devil's advocate here.

I don't know why I'm saying all of this. I agree with everything that everyone has said about all the crap you can get by dealing with vets EXCEPT for the fact that I don't think it's fair, or more importantly...TRUE, to say that ALL vets, or even MOST vets are only in it for the money and don't give a crap about the health of the animals they treat. That's just not fair to the ones that are busting their ass because they want to help animals. And THOSE vets WILL be the ones who will be able to ultimately reject the Science Diet gods and their "scientific" bibles.

I might have felt differently if I hadn't watched my friend go through vet school. It's ungodly hard and it sucks the life out of you and it costs a fortune and you have NO life and TONS of stress and in most states the starting salary is only 30-50K. Obviously there are some real jackasses in every profession and on the nutrition score I am not arguing with anything. I'm in complete agreement that they don't know anything about it. I just can't believe they're all in it only for the money. There are easier ways to make the same amount of cake.

So now it's naivete`?

If I'm not learning, I'm not paying attention.
Randy

Are you not learning, or are you not paying attention?

You win. They're all evil and kill puppies for fun.

Lax training?

Still learning
Randy

No they don't kill puppys. That would fix the future profit, wouldn't it.
Seriously, I can understand say the difference in opinion on something like hip xrays, or diagnosis of skin, nose, throat, ears, gland, heart problems, or general malaise. Something as fundamental as nutrition though should be a gut course for the people smart enough to get though 4 years of hard work. And I do believe they have to work hard.
So where is the failing?
Randy

 Quote: randy allen

No they don't kill puppys. That would fix the future profit, wouldn't it.
Seriously, I can understand say the difference in opinion on something like hip xrays, or diagnosis of skin, nose, throat, ears, gland, heart problems, or general malaise. Something as fundamental as nutrition though should be a gut course for the people smart enough to get though 4 years of hard work. And I do believe they have to work hard.
So where is the failing?
Randy

Again: Follow the money. From every single angle, money answers the question. Vet schools want the funding from Hills. Vet associations need the "corporate partnership" with Hills. Researchers can't do research without funding. Hills is not funding unbiased research, obviously. Extremely sophisticated reading material and company reps who make the "franchise" simple and lucrative for practicing vets -- all this is possible with the money from selling a zillion bags of cheap crap instead of costly meat.

But some vets actually have the spine and brains and lack of money-lust to say no, and that number is growing.