Quote: Megan Berry

Howard, I believe you may have misunderstood. I mean if you have a PPD, and say said dog is CGC certified; if you have to stop at say, the grocery store, drug store, etc, but can't leave him in the car. (It's 110 here today, i wouldn't leave a dog in the car for 5 minutes!)

It isn't always practical to make a 2nd trip (I live 30 miles from the nearest grocery store), and it isn't like going into a restaraunt for a meal, or browsing through a department store. Seems people could get permits or such for this situation.

I personally would have my dogs CGC certified, and pay whatever permit fee I had to if i could bring them along as 'companion' dogs. I love bringing Sasha to work with me, and it's nice to be able to get her used to 'ignoring people', but it does limit the errands I can run after work.

Funny when I brought Sasha into the Attorney Generals office today. All the girls in the office were fawning over her. I wonder if they would've been fawning over her in the same way if they saw her do her French Ring Brevet this past weekend?

Sure she is temperment tested to CSAU (euro) standards basically a CGN, as well as her new FR Brevet. She also lives with kids who have run her over with a wagon, wonked her on the head with a baseball bat and other assorted maladies that only kids can do to a dog. So I have no qualms about bringing her with me anywhere as the social groundwork that has been laid with her is solid as a rock. Even though she is bitework trained.

Which brings me to my next point. If the dog passes those tests like the CGN and other requirements as stated in the SDA www and the person uses and has trained the animal for his/her specific disability. Why not?

As per my experience with the Service dog providers/trainers up here. There needs to be some sort of easier way for disabled people to get the assistance and help that they may need without being harrassed and legislated at every step of the way.

One of the major issues with assistance dogs, I believe, is cost.

'Pre-Trained' dogs can run around 30k! So sure, people get a dog at the pound (which is awesome) to train themselves. Unfortunately, they don't do the proper groundwork. These dogs are no more service-dog trained than the average house pet.

Perhaps making it all mandated through a government agency is the only answer. ONE certification testing, where the dog MUST wear a vest, or collar identifying them, or at the very least, requiring the handler to carry a card. Even an endorsement on a drivers license -- they do it for those that need glasses, and for those that are organ donors, so why not?

yes, it's a few more hoops for those that truly need it to jump through, but wouldn't it be worth it to weed out the 'fakes'?

That site also mentioned that 'protective dogs are discouraged'. Why? Wouldn't some drug-addict see the poor old lady in the weelchair as an easy target? Golden Retrievers/Labs aren't exactly deterrants... maybe PPD training SHOULD be a part of assistance dogs. Especially for those that are wheelchair-bound, or have other drastic mobility issues.

I'm sure if all of it became mandated, many honorable trainers would step up and offer to help with the training of service dogs, particularly those adopted from the pound. I remembered seeing only a few days ago, an agency in Texas (I think?) That goes to the animal shelter regularly to temperment test the dogs there. If they find any that have service-dog potential, they pull them and train them, then place them with those that otherwise couldn't afford the assistance they need.

Too bad it isnt a national organization....

Megan, the assistance dogs trained for PP is (I believe) a bit of a sore subject for some. I do not think that assistance dogs should have bite training. The type of dog that it takes to be a PPD is not the kind of dog to be an assistance dog for seriously disabled people. I do think that a dog trained to bark in a seemingly aggressive manner on command would be a good deterrent but there is way too much liability involved for service/assistance animals to be bite trained in a general sense.

Now people/dogs like Geoff and Sasha that is different he at least is capable of controlling her and the training is maintained etc. he is above the average dog owner status as well.

Jennifer,

Oh, don't get me wrong! I don't mean that EVERY assistance dog should be a PPD! As you said, bark & hold is enough in most cases! I mean if you have someone that is wheelchair bound, that lives alone, with no immediate family; THEY would need some sort of protection, as they can't fend off an attack or a mugging.

Of course, this is a completely different issue than basic service dogs, as most people don't 'need' this type of protection.

WOW!
This is a good thread...
I'm going to throw my experience out here and then duck accordingly...
My Mom has a severe mental disorder. I'm not going to specifically go into what she has here, but I will say that for a while, I was considering training a dog for her. She is unable to be around crowds without a severe case of anxiety which causes her heart to beat irregularly, and in some situations, it has actually stopped (she passed out, stopped breathing, then it started again once she had passed out)
A lot of this was because of some unfortunate events that had occurred years ago.
Now, in her case, a service animal would actually have helped. A WELL TRAINED service animal. Training a dog to direct her out of the room, building or otherwise (using a seeing eye type harness that she would be holding onto) and stop outside whenever she started to have the issue begin would have allowed her to collect herself to calm down. NOT a dog to chase people away or "protect" her.
I have also seen a service dog that was trained (using a seeing eye harness) to direct the handler away from any kind of scent.
This person was dealthy allergic to any kind of fragrance, and was unable to go to the store as she would immidiately go into an asthmatic arrest, and her airway would close up. This particular woman and her service animal were featured on animal planet.
My other example is my younger brother, who has a form of autism, called asperger's syndrome. He has a severe difficulty dealing with his impulse control, as well as anxiety type issues. In his case, there have been a number of service animals used to treat cases like his - basically when his emotion levels start to get out of control (as we all know, the animals pick up on this) the dogs are trained to move close to the person and be in physical contact with them. The presence close up helps to break the downward spiral of behavior, and it has a serious calming effect on the person. This results in fewer outbursts and the child learning how to control the anxiety and emotion, which is the biggest challenge these kids face. I can see how this will help a disability like this, when there is a genuine need.
I also see how it can be abused.
The biggest problem that I see is many people are either used to the system being abused, or they are unfamiliar with the laws - which lead to truly disabled people with truly trained dogs (personally or professionally trained) being harrassed and embarrassed in public. For someone who is just trying to find a way to be as normal as possible, being singled out is a huge issue. This is why the laws are there. For someone to have to produce their medical information and be questioned (usually in public) what is "wrong" with them for them to need a service animal is, IMHO wrong. There is a reason privacy laws are there, and they should be honored. I think that there should be a regulating agency, but I do not think the dogs should have it on their card what makes them a service animal. I also don't think that the people should have to answer why they need a service animal, but I do think there should be a patch identifying them by a national agency - similar to a police patch or an EMT patch. If the handlers' doctor is able to validate the need for an animal, and the handler (or trainer) validates the training, then whether someone else agrees it is necessary or not won't matter, and will eliminate the need for people to be approached and asked for verification.
While we wait for the regulating agency, MHO is to leave sleeping dogs lie, so to speak. Approaching or challenging every person not clearly blind as to the validity of their service animal is insulting to those truly needing them. (And I see this a LOT. Any time someone walks into a public place, they are nearly immediately accosted and questioned here. Whether the dog is wearing a cape or NOT) Any person who has an animal out of control, like the OP talked about, should be asked to remove the animal, but offered the ability to remain without the animal. Yes, it allows the system to be abused. Yes, that sucks. But it also allows the ones truly needing the service animals the freedom and annonimity of being "normal" and not singled out.

Edited by Cameron Feathers (06/12/2008 08:02 PM)
Edit reason: too long... SORRY!

Cameron, You are describing serious cases with real need of a dog My issue is with people that get nervous in new situations sometimes and think that this entitles them to taking their ill tempered YorMalPuggleChiPoo everywhere with them. Instead of learning to deal with their issues they can become worse in relying on their animal, which enables the problems.

In the height of my problem I could not go into a crowd. I would get twitchy and nervous THINKIng about going into a crowd while I was alone, at home. I could not answer the phone, I could not attend school, I was so paranoid and full of anxiety I thought my family wanted me dead because they were ashamed of me somehow. Irrational and well, stupid! I can call myself that now because I realize how irrational it was to think the way I did. I would pass out/black out from stress/anxiety if someone at a quiet grocery store asked me if I needed help.

Perhaps being as bad as I was is what drew the line from a dog being of any help. A dog would not have been able to help me and would only have given me something else to be anxious about. Finding an exit would not have made a difference, I'd have passed out before I got there and being outside was no help.

For people that really do benefit from a dog helping them in that manner, as long as the dog is properly trained and is well mannered, I'm fine with that. I do still believe it is enabling the issues but that's just my over-opinionated side talking lol and if someone wants to yell at me for it PM me to keep the board clean. I'm just of the school of thought that for certain things medication makes it worse, and anything acting to enable a problem helps to form it into a habit rather than a true reaction. I still have moments where I almost revert back to being a total wreck but I contain, control, and continue on.

Service dogs can be of great assistance. I don't argue that. I don't argue that X person with X problem should not have their service dog if it helps and the animal is under controlled and properly trained. My issue is that there are no regulations and people fake problems or lie to get their housepet into a store or get worse because the dog enables them to not deal with any of the issues they are having.

Service animals are wonderful. But the CGC, TT, and TDI are tests I think should be required for any animal to be allowed to go everywhere do everything and be called an Assistance/Service animal.

Hi Cameron,

This person I dealt with entered the establishment without being questioned. More than likely an oversight by a teenage employee. No matter,,,any business owner has the right to question a person who brings what obviously appears to be a pet dog into their business. There are health and safety issues that they have to be concerned with but said issues are moot if the dog is a service animal.

That said; there was no issue with the dog until it got loose and chased people. That it when the dog became the focus of the manager, and ultimately the police.

Now what we have is most certainly a pet that the owner won't leave at home. He knows the loopholes in the ADA service dog criteria and he capitalized on it when he and his dog screwed up. He had the cajones to demand an arrest of the manager even though he was clearly (and knowingly) wrong. The best defense is a good offense and he played it quite well...until he met me.

I have to admit that he had me on the ropes at first. I know a woman who spends 3-4 years training service dogs before they are placed so I was well aware of what is required training. What I didn't know was how wide open the policy is. As soon as Mr. short term memory rattled off the statute number in an effort to intimidate me I immediately looked up the statute on my laptop and bingo!, he had hung himself.

Round two went to my partner and I. The knockout blow will come from animal control. This guy had no shame in what he was doing and he knew he held all the cards. Thats until the dog got aggressive. He intentionally (even though it was not in violation) concealed the fact that the dog was a service dog until the problem occurred. As soon as he was focused on he played the ADA service dog card to the hilt, demanding an arrest.

Again...theres no law that says he has to announce the dogs' purpose, but why bring grief upon yourself? He openly admits he has been harassed before so one would think he would take measures to prevent the alleged harassment.

The only thing that made sense to me was that he was caught bringing his pet into the business...or he was intentionally trying to solicit a violation of law that could lead to civil litigation and a big payday.

The only way for a business to defend against such an incident in court would be good witness statements and the totality of the circumstances which could logically be explained to laymen jurors. Sad, but true. Theres always someone out there trying to get over on someone else. Being disabled is not a disqualifying trait in the scammer's world. If anything, the sympathy card tends to lead good hearted people into believing the scammers story. Sickening!

Howard

I just wanted to ask I tried to get phoenix trained to be a therapy dog.
well she went in for her final test and she would not let them brush her without acting scared.
So they would not pass her.
How can they get a certinfication without a test I may just be dumn here but it cost me money and she had to be tested 3 times over a six month period. To be able to go to the hospital and such to see kids and the old people.
I could pull the paper work out but really dont feel like it.
So how can they not get the right things.
If I tried to take phoenix somewhere even with her training vest she had to where they want paper work and things.
I just dont understand

 Quote: stephanie st julian

I just wanted to ask I tried to get phoenix trained to be a therapy dog.
well she went in for her final test and she would not let them brush her without acting scared.
So they would not pass her.
How can they get a certinfication without a test I may just be dumn here but it cost me money and she had to be tested 3 times over a six month period. To be able to go to the hospital and such to see kids and the old people.
I could pull the paper work out but really dont feel like it.
So how can they not get the right things.
If I tried to take phoenix somewhere even with her training vest she had to where they want paper work and things.
I just dont understand

To clarify, who were "they"? Certification from whom?

Apparently therapy dogs are held to a higher standard which is documented. Assistance dogs have to meet no such standard or be documented. Crazy.

Here's a thought. Can my wife use our GSDs as assistance dogs to thwart the homeowners' insurance scam on banned breeds? Is it a scam if you scam the scammers? Hell, now I'm beginning to feel the corruption seep in.

Yes, Will....it is a slippery slope!! And I'm wearing ice sneakers. :-)

Howard