Thank you for your kind and thoughtful advice CJ. I really appreciate you taking the time to craft a constructive reply.

To clarify, the dog is not being trained for Schutzhund. I chose that trainer because she has experience training police and protection dogs. Any fool can call themselves a dog trainer, I wanted someone with real experience in these matters.

The trainer has said my Anatolian is not really a hard dog, she has worked with much more dominant dogs (mostly GSD), and she does have experience training Akbash which is another Turkish LSG breed. Years ago I did quite a bit of Doberman rescue and dealt with some very high strung difficult dogs, this dog is not like that at all and he is at the height of his terrible teens.

Some people on this board seem to believe this animal is some sort of half wild killing machine running purely on instinct. That is not at all the case. He is very intelligent and affectionate, he wants to be with me constantly, his dog aggressive behavior is obviously at least in part a desire to manipulate me and remain the center of attention. He is amazingly good with strangers (at the vets, people that have come by the house etc&hellip which is especially impressive considering he was raised in field with very limited human contact and absolutely NO experience with the outside world (not even a puppy vet visit, the vet came to the farm).

I know you are absolutely correct, I need to establish control and remain calm at all times. The main reason I have purchased the e-collar is because due to his size I have never been able to really correct him. He weighs nearly what I do and of course he is much stronger. We both became very aware of the strength difference the moment I brought him home and tried to get this “crate trained dog” in his kennel. He learned a lot at that moment, I could barely move him an inch and if dogs could laugh he surely would have.

I knew introducing him to my males might take some work however the stray pregnant dog showing up really threw a wrench into the mix. I panicked the moment she arrived and frantically made calls because having puppies to care for would obviously add stress to the household, divide my attention, and mess up the wonderful experience of bringing home a “new puppy” for the first time in 15 years.

Anyway my plan is to use the collar sparingly for a little gentle obedience and primarily to teach him barking or pounding on the x-pen is not allowed when the other dogs are NOT in the room (he occasionally has tantrums when he wants attention and is penned). I hope (and correct me if I am wrong) if he learns that acting up in the pen will bring a correction then he will associate any future corrections with the pen and not my other dogs.

 Quote: sonya anderson

I bought the remote collar to at least try to curb the x-pen aggression. I want them to be able to be in the same room so we can all share family time without the fence fighting (which honestly scares the heck out of me, if those dogs get into it the Aussie will be dead and I won't be able to stop it).

Since I am one of "those people on this board" I want to clarify that no, I do not think your shepherd is a wild, killing machine. My concern as to your ability to deal with this situation is based on your admission that if he gets to the other dog, the dog will be killed and there is nothing you will be able to do to stop it. I don't take that admission as a weakness - I couldn't stop it either. My concern is also based on the fact that you are already stressed with the adoption (I apologize for using the word "collecting" that was not accurate) of a dog and puppies, living in a tight place which is now having to become more of a kennel instead of your home.

I do not believe that an ecollar is going to work on this dog in this siutation, JMHO. I truly hope it does for your and your dogs' sake and would like nothing more than to hear in six months everyone is alive and well and able to share that family time you are hoping to create in this pack.

I also believe you owe Connie an apology for your pretty vicious verbal attack. JMO.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

My concern as to your ability to deal with this situation is based on your admission that if he gets to the other dog, the dog will be killed and there is nothing you will be able to do to stop it.

I do not believe that an ecollar is going to work on this dog in this siutation, JMHO.

I also believe you owe Connie an apology for your pretty vicious verbal attack. JMO.

I don’t actually know that the Aussie would be killed. The Aussie would likely back down very quickly once the fight started, he is not a fighter. Since Anatolians excel in very dramatic threat displays perhaps he is more reasonable than I give him credit for, it is possible the Anatolian would show mercy once the Aussie submitted, but of course once the adrenaline kicks in all bets are off.

I should also mention the Aussie is at LEAST half the problem. The Aussie has very refined canine social skills, he can charm a dog aggressive canine quickly if he wants to (he has done it before quite easily). When he saw the Anatolian he growled, that was the first time he has ever growled at a strange dog. He has been subtly provoking the situation ever since.

The e-collar is intended as a means of correction, not a magic bullet. As stated I have never been able to correct this dog in any even meaningful way. Any sort of correction that gets his attention could be a big benefit when it comes to establishing control.

Some posters see me as “irresponsible” because I blatantly admit if a fight did occur it could be fatal. Would it be better if I said I thought I could control it? I have a real fear of dog fights (fear for the safety of the dogs, not my own), the sound alone freaks me out, that is part of the problem as my anxiety goes up dramatically when they start in with the threats and they can sense it.

Regarding Connie; choosing to exploit the personal details that I shared such as living a small house and being unable to kill a pregnant dog (the “shoebox” and “collecting” comments) is not being helpful, it is blatantly catty. They do not fall under “thinking of what is best for the dog”, if one is trying to influence another into doing what is “right for the dog” they don’t start making snipey personal comments. Perhaps it is my fault for sharing personal details that reveal weakness.

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

... I don’t actually know that the Aussie would be killed. The Aussie would likely back down very quickly once the fight started, he is not a fighter. Since Anatolians excel in very dramatic threat displays perhaps he is more reasonable than I give him credit for, it is possible the Anatolian would show mercy once the Aussie submitted, but of course once the adrenaline kicks in all bets are off. ... I should also mention the Aussie is at LEAST half the problem. The Aussie has very refined canine social skills, he can charm a dog aggressive canine quickly if he wants to (he has done it before quite easily). When he saw the Anatolian he growled, that was the first time he has ever growled at a strange dog. He has been subtly provoking the situation ever since. ...

I just want to say to anyone who may be able to help here: Please eliminate perceived personality conflicts from the conversation. It's a non-topic, I think and hope.

I'm a big girl and I'm sure Sonja is too. Discussions of who hurt whose feelings are nothing but obfuscation here, and the critical subject is these dogs. Thanks.

I went to bed last night, and this is the post I made from the other thread.

Connie,
you are right in this.
One of the reasons that they are crossing Anatolians on Pyrs is to try to ramp up the defense/territorial aggression, specifically directed to domestic cannids.
Or to put it another way.....Pyrs will hunt coyotes for recreation all day...foxes too.....BUT it can be really re3alllly hard to get a Pyr that will have an instant reaction to a strange domestic dog.
It may sound weird, but it can be really difficult to get a Pyr to attack strange tame dogs on site.
For some reason they don't have a problem getting that they are supposed to hunt the wild ones, but when it comes to hunting their own kind, they are hesitant to just kill a domestic dog in cold blood. (a generalization.)
Stray domestic dog pack are a major threat to goats and chickens and such.
Its enough of a problem, that lots and lots of people are bringing the hard core aggressive traits of the Anatolian to the table, and crossing them on the Pyrs.
It also has the nice side effect of the crosses shedding out in the summer to a shorter coat.
Ours are 3/4 Pyr, 1/4 Anatolian.
I love what this combination has done in my bitch. She is really dog aggressive. I have had a pit bull get loose from the neighbor, and try to get in with the goats. She was able through just her body language and bark to stop him about an acre away from the goat pen. He was an acre away and through a fence and he just knew that she was going to end it if he came any further.
The other dogs were barking too, but he was ignoring them.
he turned and went home, so I didn't have to shoot him. Baby goats were safe, neighbors dog was safe, and my dog did her job.
That is what the Anatolian is all about. Pure Anatolian are so verry hard to manage in a working situation, I can't even imagine trying to have one as a house pet..I'm not saying it can't be done, but wow. That's going to take a huge commitment and work.
the dog being a year old and showing these behaviors in the home is showing that he isn't adjusting well and needs to be Worked with in a serious manner.
I would buy Ed's vids the pack leader one, the dominant aggressive one, and the obedience one followed by the marker training one. Also neuter ASAP.
he is going to need 4 45 min walks a day with packs with weight in them or a tread mill. He was made to patrol 300 acres plus a day, and kick some serious wolf but in the interval.
He cant ever ever be trusted to use his judgment on who to attack....its his job to attack NON pack members.
I don't want ANY ANY cannids (sp?P near my stock. Its their job to neutralize all non pack members that come near their charges.
Anatolians are known for being really difficult to teach that its ok to have people near the stock that they don't know...cause I don't want people near the goats either! Its their job to keep everything away from their charges. This is what they are made for.
Can it be over come? Some times......with a bunch of hard work.
I hope I don't sound nasty, that isn't my intent. I would be happy to advise with the dog aggression further if you are interested.
Willie

Nuts, I posted before I saw thatthe thread was being moved. Sry.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

I'm a big girl and I'm sure Sonja is too. Discussions of who hurt whose feelings are nothing but obfuscation here, and the critical subject is these dogs. Thanks.

Thank you Connie. I am not on the forum to bond with others or make friends (obviously). I am fighting a battle here and I really hope others can provide good advice. Maybe this is a lost cause, but I am not willing to give up yet.

This is a common problem, sheesh half the website seems to be devoted to this very issue (dog aggression). I love the Anatolian, I do not want to give him up. Is it selfish? Yes, I have made a lot of personal sacrifices for dogs in my lifetime, I pay the bills and I put the food in their mouths, I have the right to expect a little cooperation. If I can learn how to make these dogs respect me it is theoretically quite possible that the situation can be worked out.

 Quote: sonya anderson

Regarding Connie; choosing to exploit the personal details that I shared such as living a small house and being unable to kill a pregnant dog (the “shoebox” and “collecting” comments) is not being helpful, it is blatantly catty. They do not fall under “thinking of what is best for the dog”, if one is trying to influence another into doing what is “right for the dog” they don’t start making snipey personal comments. Perhaps it is my fault for sharing personal details that reveal weakness.

Ok, just hold on a second here. Are you not doing the same thing in your posts? Being snipey, catty, ugrateful etc....

it's not a weakness to want to help animals..heck i've brought home a wounded seagull from a playground to try and nurse back to health and rescued mice caught in a glass vase under my sink!!! Having compassion for living things is never a weakness and I will applaud your effort in finding homes for those pups and their mother. very cute pups by the way, i'ld take one in a heart beat if i could.

Why can't i, because my current dog has pretty bad DA and the life of a small pup would very much be in danger as Tucker's only thought when it comes to small dogs or puppies is to not establish who's who, but to just eliminate the competition all together. Larger dogs are just seen as something to get out of the way too. And he's not the smartest, he doesn't see size, he just see's something to take care of. I know his limits and i know that me owning multiple dogs is not going to happen. Plus i know the stress it would put him under to have another dog here.

My point im trying to make is that you need to understand your limits Sonya and your dogs. And i think the dog you have now is not going to integrate into your pack the way you want it to. You're putting undue stress on your male Austrailian and the new dog. The AS might be fine with stranger's but that information is irrelevant because you didn't come here with a problem about People aggression...you have a problem with Dog Aggression.
Tucker LOVES everyone too....but it doesn't mean he has it in him to be around other dogs. It will never be the case with him. And it sounds like this will be the case for you and the AS at least where male dogs are concerned.

There is no cure for severe DA, imo. Even if the dog is just aggressive with males or even just with a certain dog. You can teach the dog that the aggression is not acceptable, but the aggression will always be there, underlying and it has to be controlled. Timing using an ecollar for aggression is CRITICAL!!!
If you miss time a correction you will just escalate the aggression and so on and so on.

Everyone has given you advice that you don't want to hear. We know it's hard to hear this once you've bonded with the dog. But just think how this is effecting your current dogs. The AS might get along with the females, but trust me their is an underlying tension with your pack that you are more than likely not picking up on.
Returning this dog to where you got it from is not being cruel...as quickly as the dog bonded to you is proof that he will just as quickly bond to being back in the field guarding a herd.
The more you try to make this work the harder it's going to get and i feel the consequences that are going to come from this are going to be horrible.

Please take everyone's advice on here and deal with this the right way.

If you want a "macho" dog (im not even going to get into why that is never a good reason to obtain a dog) get a pup and go from there.
Tucker is a border collie/husky cross...sounds like a pretty flaky cross...but trust me...he is allllll man. lol
I guess "machoness" lies in the eye's of the beholder.

Wendy



Edited by Wendy Lefebvre (03/06/2010 10:38 AM)
Edit reason: removed my "apologize" comment because it seems like you already did!

 Quote: Sonya Anderson

I hope (and correct me if I am wrong) if he learns that acting up in the pen will bring a correction then he will associate any future corrections with the pen and not my other dogs.

 Quote: Barbara Schuler

I do not believe that an ecollar is going to work on this dog in this siutation, JMHO. I truly hope it does for your and your dogs' sake and would like nothing more than to hear in six months everyone is alive and well and able to share that family time you are hoping to create in this pack.

There is weeks of training that go along with using the e-collar. A couple of high-voltage zaps isn’t going to help your situation.

Firstly, your dog needs to know what’s expected. By that I mean a trained commend or behavior (settle, sit, place, quiet) that he has learned with one-on-one training - fully understands and is performing with consistency (Marker training is ideal and lots of fun especially for your softer dogs – which you indicated he was). Should he know and blatantly disregard a command a low-level stimulation can be introduced. Done correctly - he will associate the correction to not performing the command – not the environment he happens to be in at the time (X pen, kitchen, yard, etc). You are teaching him in an understandable way what’s expected – not just providing punishment out of nowhere.

Now having said that - I would NEVER use an e-collar to manage aggression. These are remote devices that allow you to connect with your dog in an off-leash or distant environment. Aggression needs to be handled with hands-on leadership and structure – not the comfort of your couch. The dog must earn the right to be present with the rest of the family in a relaxed state. He acts up (or the Aussie) he’s the one that’s removed (back room, out of sight crate) or lorded over under your control until he ceases the behavior.

I understand the size situation and the difficultly these Shetland Pony’s can present. But you must get this under control. He is a dog you have chosen and you must be able to manage him. Obedience training will help with this. Lifting a few weights and a prong color will also do wonders but nothing is more effective than a respectful and trusting relationship where he mentally knows you are in charge.

My qualifications are thus...
I specialize in aggression remediation , and get 120 an hour minimum.
I have trained personal protection dogs for personal use and for others, I got my start from some MWD handlers, and trained a dog that was so good and reliable that the military wanted to purchase him for their school.
I consider myself a dog behaviorist and use a healthy combination of techniques I have learned from Ed and the United Stated Military, and Cesar Milan.
I train also train obedience, and have trained service dogs.
I have owned upwards of 40 goats, and 400 chickens that have needed protection from predators.
I have had one dog almost killed from a coyote attack.
I have had baby goats almost killed from roving stray dog packs.
I have shot at coyotes and dogs on our property.
I have 2 Anatolian Pyr cross WORKING Dogs that live with their animals 24/7 guarding them.
I have innumerable friends that have real LSGDs working their properties and advise them regularly on how to work with their dogs and stock.
While I am certainly not all knowing I do believe that I meet the requirements of the challenge in your previous post of qualifications in a person to be able to answer your questions.


The problem is that I do not believe that you will listen to a thing I say.



You have incorrect beliefs and education about LSGDs and don't seem to be open to changing, or learning new things.

I have an unbelievable amount of knowledge that could be helpful in this situation that I would be MORE than happy to share with you......If you commit to listening. Not necessarily agreeing, but stopping and listening to what I have to say.

IF YOU DON'T DO SOMETHING SOON HE WILL ESCALATE AND THIS WILL TURN INTO HUMAN DIRECTED AGGRESSION. THIS WILL STEM FROM A LACK OF A JOB AND LACK OF EXERCISE DISCIPLINE AND AFFECTION IN THAT ORDER.

I hope that you can out aside what you think you know about this dog and listen to what I have to say for the sake of this dog.
Willie

Wow. I haven't read any of this post until now. I'm glad to say there has been much good advice given, but not what the OP wanted to hear. For every suggestion or offer of assistance there has been a comeback, a refusal to even try. Sonya, I've come here for help several times and have always been successful. This group is very knowledgeable, but what I think you're experiencing is that for the first time advice is given to you FOR THE SAKE OF THE DOGS, not necessarily for you. Sometimes the two coincide, sometimes they don't. Please listen.